Home Gaming White men dominate the South African games industry

White men dominate the South African games industry

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Token make game

Game development may lead to cool products that we like to play with, but it’s also a serious industry. Make Games SA has looking into the industry with a survey and found out just how much money it’s worth in South Africa. They also found out about representation in gaming and it’s not that great locally.

First, the good news. The games industry is growing. Gaming development companies have created 253 jobs; the industry itself is worth R53 million. Having released 67 games in 2014, that’s really rather cool. There’s a fairly even split between the two main hubs for game development with 16 studios based in Cape Town and 14 in Joburg with an additional six in Pretoria. Interestingly, the three largest studios in the industry account for 48% of the industry value. Things will need to grow and transform quite a bit more before we have a truly mature industry, it seems.

It’s great to see the value of the games industry increasing, as well as a higher rate of full-time employment (a 55% increase from last year). However, I’m a bit concerned by the ownership of these games studios. They are 91% white male owned. If we dig into employees the numbers are a bit more diverse with 80% of the gaming workforce being white males, 12% white females and the remaining 8% a mixture of men from other ethnicities. The organization clearly sees a need for change in the industry:

Not reflected on the graph is a single coloured female. Alarmingly it appears there are no black females employed by the industry in any capacity. Similarly there are no Indian/Asian Females employed by the industry.

From a gender perspective the industry is still heavily skewed with men making up roughly 88.5% of the industry.
These statistics show a dire need to transformation in the industry.

I’m not at allΒ surprised by this. It follows international trends – although the extreme nature of the stats is a bit shocking. I knew it was dominated by white males – just going to a MGSA meet up proves how male-dominated the industry is.

Last Updated: April 24, 2015

281 Comments

  1. Pariah

    April 24, 2015 at 10:11

    *This article brought to you from the kitchen*

    *RUNS

    Reply

  2. Lord Chaos

    April 24, 2015 at 10:13

    I honestly don’t see the point in any of this.
    Do the job you want and you’re good at, WTF does colour have to do with anything, as long as you’re good at your job I don’t care if you’re a pink midget pony.

    Reply

    • Pariah

      April 24, 2015 at 10:13

      I just imagined a pink midget pony. Dear lord. O_O

      Reply

    • Her Highness the Hipster

      April 24, 2015 at 10:14

      i don’t mind what they are, but they’re the first ones to moan about representation in gaming, but don’t do it themselves.

      Reply

      • Spathi

        April 24, 2015 at 10:16

        THIS SO MUCH!! Sorry for shouting, your comment is 100% correct.

        Reply

      • Lord Chaos

        April 24, 2015 at 10:16

        Exactly. If you want representation, get people who would be excited in doing it.

        Reply

      • Skyblue

        April 24, 2015 at 10:19

        Almost like looking at the comments section on LG. I’m pretty sure the white male representation is completely out of whack and I want to know what LG are doing to rectify the situation? ;-p

        Reply

        • Geoffrey Tim

          April 24, 2015 at 10:24

          For starters, we’ve stopped showing images of scantily-clad women on our ION images. We’ve also explored avenues of diversifying our coverage – not just in the sorts of games that are covered, but in how they’re covered. We’re tying, but it’s slow.

          We’re also trying to foster better comments – making them more welcoming to other people – and jokes about women in kitchens, don’t really help that.

          Reply

          • Spathi

            April 24, 2015 at 10:28

            “We’re also trying to foster better comments” – That would imply that you readership actually mature. ROFL!!! What’s the chance? πŸ˜›

            Sorry, I’m not helping I know.

          • Skyblue

            April 24, 2015 at 10:35

            I know you’re aware that it was a tongue in cheek question but thanks for responding. There is always risk in change but lack of it is a bigger risk. I applaud LG for taking the necessary steps to try and appeal to a wider audience even though I miss the ION girls.
            As for the kitchen joke, I thought it was a fun barb aimed at Zoe by a regular but new visitors probably wouldn’t get it so I understand the concern.

          • flmboy

            April 24, 2015 at 10:37

            Diversify? Sure Why not. Why don’t you guys include coverage of Farming? I mean Farming Simulator, Goat Simulator? Those are all relevant right. As for the comments, good luck, this is the internet.

          • Hammersteyn

            April 24, 2015 at 10:42

            Both simulators has been covered. As for the comments…. We’ll try our best.

          • flmboy

            April 24, 2015 at 10:47

            I meant why not diversify and cover actual Farming. It relates to those simulators. Facetious

          • hairyknees

            April 24, 2015 at 10:48

            We have though πŸ™‚ I cover loads of unconventional things. Here are two examples:

            http://www.lazygamer.net/genre/sim-genre/grab-your-pitchforks-farming-simulator-15-lands-on-pc-this-october/

            http://www.lazygamer.net/24/solve-the-mystery-of-love-with-kitty-powers-matchmaker/

            EDIT: Oh nevermind… I reread your comment πŸ˜›

          • Pariah

            April 24, 2015 at 10:49

            I’d bet you get to write these articles from LG just to troll you.

          • Lord Chaos

            April 24, 2015 at 10:50

            They even covered the kardashian and lohan games…

          • hairyknees

            April 24, 2015 at 10:51

            We reviewed them even :'(

          • Pariah

            April 24, 2015 at 10:53

            That’s what he just said O_O

          • hairyknees

            April 24, 2015 at 10:58

            O_O

          • David

            April 24, 2015 at 11:21

            If you’re trying to foster “better comments” then agendas need to be discharged too. The clickbaity use of words like WHITE MEN DOMINATE, designed to create confrontation and discourse – are not “welcoming to other people.”

          • Lardus-Resident Perve

            April 24, 2015 at 13:00

            I think this is more an FFD than the actual FFD

          • Brady miaau

            April 24, 2015 at 12:18

            Hmm. Not bad answer. Keep going.

      • Geoffrey Tim

        April 24, 2015 at 10:31

        Thy admit that there is a problem, and many are actively trying to change the situation. What’s wrong with that?

        Reply

        • flmboy

          April 24, 2015 at 10:43

          Are there also people actively trying to get more women into the Springbok Rugby team?

          Reply

        • Josh Strauss

          April 24, 2015 at 12:22

          I’m all for people choosing their profession and having accessibility to said profession, however, why is there always a drive to force an issue of making certain industries ‘more representative’ of females?

          Why does it always seem like a one way street? For example I never hear about a drive to get more male beauty therapists, hairdressers, teachers etc. There are male dominated industries and female dominated industries, is there really anything wrong with that? As long as females are not precluded from entering a male dominated profession and visa versa then I do not see an issue.

          This utopian drive for perfectly representative industries which have the right number of males and females split into the specific racial groups needs to stop. For me no discrimination = no problem.

          Discrimination is another matter and should be tackled but it is vastly different to representation.

          Reply

          • Lardus-Resident Perve

            April 24, 2015 at 12:59

            “As long as females are not precluded from entering a male dominated profession and visa versa then I do not see an issue” – Exactly that. Also, one does not hear about the representation in jobs “nobody really wants”, like crawling around in sewers etcetera. One only hears about it when the jobs/careers are sought after.

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 13:13

            Good point, look at government’s focus on the management of JSE firms. I’m not sure of the exact figures but we only looking at a few hundred positions in total, yet you’d think that those positions were the last remaining hold-outs of the entire transformation process…. transformation is still required in many “lower-level” areas, not just at CEO level.

    • Mark Treloar

      April 25, 2015 at 11:58

      Pink midget ponies already have a job in “Whimsydale”.

      Reply

  3. Pariah

    April 24, 2015 at 10:13

    *Disclaimer: I don’t think women belong in the kitchen, and we all know Zoe is a talented and awesome journalist and person.

    Reply

    • RinceThis

      April 24, 2015 at 10:14

      Also she makes a mean sammich *RUNS

      Reply

      • Rock789

        April 24, 2015 at 10:26

        I feel a RinceThis vs Zoe Mortal Kombat Tournament coming…

        Reply

        • RinceThis

          April 24, 2015 at 10:28

          Tehehe

          Reply

        • Dutch Matrix

          April 24, 2015 at 10:28

          Zoe takes no prisoners, also, she does not beat people up in games. She does that shit in real life, yo!

          Reply

  4. Travi the Batman

    April 24, 2015 at 10:14

    Oh deer. It’s the patriarchy at work again, it seems.
    On a more serious note, so what? It’s not like the game industry in SA is hiring white men because they’re white men. They’re probably hiring white men because the majority of the applicants just happen to be white men. There is no ding-dong-diddly conspiracy theory to somehow phase out people of other races and gender out of the game industry. We live in a meritocracy and he/she who is best qualified for a job and seems to make the most money out of the time and resources are given shall be hired.
    TL;DR
    MONEY TALKS, NIGGA.

    Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 10:15

      Ah but you se that is exactly the problem, why aren’t women and people of colour entering the market or applying for jobs?

      Reply

      • RinceThis

        April 24, 2015 at 10:18

        Perhaps it’s a cultural thing? Many demographics are interested in different things.

        Reply

      • Eric

        April 24, 2015 at 11:29

        When I studied for software dev there were 2 black people (both females) doing the course out of about 150 people. One dropped out. The other one went overseas after marrying. On campus, for other courses, there was a LOT more accurate representation of SA’s demographics. So it’s not that they don’t have the oppertunity. For some reason non-white people just don’t study it. If a certain demographic of people don’t qualify themselves for the positions, then honestly no one should be complaining that companies don’t hire them.

        Reply

      • RustedFaith

        April 24, 2015 at 13:55

        Because they are interested in other fields mostly, but its the white mans fault because blacks doesn’t play games. Its the minority whites that prevents blacks from playing games and getting into the gaming market. Am I reading where you going with this correct ?

        Here let me teach you something today about gaming. To be able to play games you go to your local CNA, Pick and Pay, Dion or whatever and buy a console or pc.

        Woohoo magic you just made yourself a gamer. So please enlighten me where the barrier to entry that you are mentioning below is. Is the white man in CNA telling you no you cant buy a console or PC cause you are black ? Stop playing the victim no one feels sorry for you here.

        Cheers of to news 24 again with you.

        Reply

      • Travi the Batman

        April 24, 2015 at 18:01

        Because it’s a free world where in theory people can work where they want?

        Reply

  5. Mistake Not...

    April 24, 2015 at 10:14

    Isn’t the SA game industry still a little young, though? I understand and support the need for transformation, but I think it might take a while. Also, qualifications come into play, but I think that’s a story in itself.

    Reply

    • Geoffrey Tim

      April 24, 2015 at 10:59

      Yeah, i think that has a lot to do with it. If you see the study, a great number of the studios sampled are very young. Growth happens, but it takes time

      Reply

      • Matthew Holliday

        April 24, 2015 at 11:35

        BUT WE NEED TRANSFORMATION NOW!

        its only a matter of time befor stuff like the DGL is forced to impliment BEE/affirmative action requirements on clans aswell.

        Reply

        • Sageville

          April 24, 2015 at 11:47

          You can totally get transformation now, but i’d imagine that would cause other issues….

          Reply

    • Thats_how_I_Troll

      April 24, 2015 at 14:15

      Good point you make their actually…. The gaming industry is very young here in South Africa… Made me think, should the minority stop inventing stuff because somehow it is discriminating to the majority to use your brain?

      Reply

  6. Spathi

    April 24, 2015 at 10:14

    “However, I’m a bit concerned by the ownership of these games studios. They are 91% white male owned.”

    That’s very impressive. Well done white males, you are creating jobs and companies!

    Reply

    • Skyblue

      April 24, 2015 at 10:16

      I like that, wd.

      Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 10:17

      Yes, but why aren’t there:

      a) Women opening game development companies
      b) People of colour opening game development companies

      There are barriers to entry, we need to find out what these are, and try and remove them

      Reply

      • Hammersteyn

        April 24, 2015 at 10:17

        No Skills?

        Reply

      • Matthew Holliday

        April 24, 2015 at 10:20

        lack of interest from the other demographics / the average demographic split in the overall gaming scene?

        Reply

      • Spathi

        April 24, 2015 at 10:24

        The wording of the article made it sound if they were criticising white males for showing entrepreneurial (had to google that word!) skills. There is no NEED for change. It’s a free country, people can do what they want. I don’t understand why all demographics must enjoy the same thing and have the same passions.

        I do however agree that if there are problems, those need to be identified. So the question firstly is: “Are you as a woman or person of color, or asian, or anyone that’s not male and white, experiencing problems that is not applicable to ALL white males?”

        Reply

      • Potty391

        April 24, 2015 at 10:30

        The problem is education. There aren’t many ways to educate yourself in the art of making games formally, which limits many people of colour from learning the trade. The reason behind white males being the dominant demographic in our gaming industry is that white males tend to be the people who show a interest in game development as a hobby.

        Remember that there aren’t any universities that really offer game development as a major (UCT has a course in game development to my knowledge, but that falls under computer science). And I think there’s a design college in Cape Town that offers a game design course or something similar. Most people in South Africa don’t even see game development as a viable career, so it’s really only the people that are really passionate about it that go anywhere (and the gaming demographic in general supports that these passionate people tend to be white males).

        Reply

        • Skyblue

          April 24, 2015 at 11:23

          Very valid point. I went cold when my oldest son told me he wants to pursue a career in game design. He has the qualification to do whatever he wants to and we’re a family of gamer’s but realising that gaming design in SA is in it’s infancy and too small to be even considered a niche market is worrying.

          Reply

        • Matthew Holliday

          April 24, 2015 at 11:27

          game developement in south africa doesnt come from gaming studies. it comes from applying other fields of study to the gaming field. 3D animation, coding etc.

          you’re right, passion is the main driving force. behind the industry. cus we all know gaming is not yet profitable here.

          Reply

      • Her Highness the Hipster

        April 24, 2015 at 10:35

        I see comments tending towards “well, everyone has to work hard and we shouldn’t hand things to women/people of color just because of who they are”
        I get that, but remember everyone, it’s not about giving a hand out, it’s about not pushing women and other ethnicities out of degrees, jobs, etc. if we can just get rid of the discrimination, we might see a wider range of people opening companies themselves.

        Reply

        • Sageville

          April 24, 2015 at 13:36

          I can understand from a employee perspective, working under a patriarchal or racist boss, but If you are a female / black business person, opening his/her own gaming company, where does the discrimination lie? Publishers? Media? Basically what/who are the blockers?

          Reply

      • Thats_how_I_Troll

        April 24, 2015 at 11:37

        Well, not everyone is risk takers are they Nickhallsa? You have to have the balls to take the risks…
        These barriers you speak of is all in your head… I am not attacking you, but if you have the skill for the job and the nerves to handle the stress associated with it, by all means , take the opportunity no matter if your green, blue or (fe)male. I am so sick and tired of these type of “surveys”. We all know how it ends, BEE and AA and the Gaming Industry gone because it was not “right” to have skilled people for the job, because they are white. I am so sick and tired of cancer that grows within the business sector. People getting jobs just because their race/gender is a discrimination itself and hypocrisy at its best. Do those 250+ employees sit without work, because it was not right to have a job in this industry because of their race and gender….
        Do we need another dent in our already very fragile economy?
        TL;DR
        If you cannot handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

        Reply

      • RustedFaith

        April 24, 2015 at 13:57

        So please enlighten me where the barrier to entry that you are mentioning below is. Is the white man in CNA telling you no you cant buy a console or PC cause you are black ? Stop playing the victim no one feels sorry for you here.

        Reply

  7. RinceThis

    April 24, 2015 at 10:14

    Not at all surprised with these stats.

    Reply

  8. oVg

    April 24, 2015 at 10:17

    Black men dominate in the big penis department

    Reply

    • Hammersteyn

      April 24, 2015 at 10:19

      I wouldn’t know, haven’t seen that many tbh

      Reply

      • Dutch Matrix

        April 24, 2015 at 10:20

        But you have seen some? 0_o

        Reply

        • Hammersteyn

          April 24, 2015 at 10:24

          Yeah, in high school. But don’t feel bad. Not everyone goes.

          Reply

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 10:27

            Oh I went to high school. Sad thing, it was during a time when black kids had to go to different schools… Honestly, I feel like I missed out.

          • Blood Emperor Trevor

            April 24, 2015 at 10:28

            LOL!

      • Skyblue

        April 24, 2015 at 10:23

        LIES!!

        Reply

      • B4d R0b0t

        April 24, 2015 at 11:36

        That many, ok how many have you seen ?

        Reply

        • Hammersteyn

          April 24, 2015 at 11:37

          see below

          Reply

    • Geoffrey Tim

      April 24, 2015 at 10:20

      No, dude. No.

      Reply

      • oVg

        April 24, 2015 at 10:22

        tee hee hee

        Reply

      • RinceThis

        April 24, 2015 at 10:25

        Bastard hasn’t been on here for weeks and this is what he brings to the table…

        Reply

    • Skyblue

      April 24, 2015 at 10:21

      ROFL! DUDE!!

      Reply

    • Dutch Matrix

      April 24, 2015 at 10:23

      What she said?

      Reply

    • RinceThis

      April 24, 2015 at 10:24

      BWAHAHAHAH!

      Reply

  9. Matthew Holliday

    April 24, 2015 at 10:17

    “These statistics show a dire need to transformation in the industry.”
    does it?
    or does it show a lack of interest from the other demographics?

    a need for transformation implies a certain level of discrimination.

    from my experience, the average demographic split of gamers matches these stats.

    Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 10:21

      We routinely lose women in the industry because it is viewed as hostile, so there is discrimination there. We’ve had a number of black students who have expressed interest in getting into the field, but ultimately chose another career because they can actually get funding to study chemical engineering/accounting/law. So not direct discrimination, but indicated barriers to entry

      Reply

      • Matthew Holliday

        April 24, 2015 at 11:25

        the whole woman thing is a discussion that has become stale and routine, so will gloss over that.

        the other part is that a scene with 253 jobs cannot possibly compete against ones as big as engineering / accounting / law.

        the indicated barrier is that the gaming industry in South Africa is not big enough to promote the recommended studies.

        Reply

      • Thats_how_I_Troll

        April 24, 2015 at 11:49

        So I want to become a Chemical Engineer… But guess what, I could not get funding, because I am a white male. But my fellow students whom scrapped past matric(no exemption and half my marks) got bursaries because they are black, no other reason. So go check out the amount of government bursaries/subsidies handed out. Then report back at the amount of those goes to black students and how many goes to white students. Go and obtain their Matric Results as well. Then read through those and then you tell me how that is not discrimination. I am so sick and tired of this I want I want I want attitude. I was brought up to take risks, make opportunities and if you really want something, to stop whining and work for it… That is my 2c for the day, scrap that, my 10c for the day as the 2c was a casualty of our blossoming economy.

        Reply

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 24, 2015 at 12:15

          *scraped

          Unfortunately due to the negative nature of our past some wrongs need to be righted. It isn’t fair or just but the majority of white students still have the ability to progress without bursaries while the majority of black students do not.

          Until that averages out there won’t be much pity for the minority of white people that will suffer.

          That’s life unfortunately

          Reply

          • Thats_how_I_Troll

            April 24, 2015 at 13:30

            Sure. So 2 wrongs make a right?? Also, with that logic, should all the children of all the murderers also be punished?? Surely they have to pay for what their parents/(great)grandparents did. Fuck this shit. I will not be sorry anymore for our history…. Because that is just what it is, history. We cannot fucking time travel to fix the wrongs of the past of other fucking people. SO fuck that! We have been sorry for way too long and it is hampering the development of this country. You can just see what a shit hole it has become. We have to see brutal farm murders, torturing of old white people? Justify that! We hear racist songs being sung, the fucking president, justify that. We get our tax money abused in our face (fuck the poor then hey) and basically we get told their is nothing we can do about it, justify that…. The list goes on…

          • Thats_how_I_Troll

            April 24, 2015 at 13:37

            Sorry for that Gavin, not directed at you… Just the current events in this Country is enough for me to even sound racist. I am not a racist, but if you attack my race, I will defend my race, just like any other person will do, since everything in this country is generalized anyway. We are all swept under the same broom!

          • Thats_how_I_Troll

            April 24, 2015 at 13:38

            Since no one can see that all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs

          • HvR

            April 24, 2015 at 14:40

            Sorry Gavin but BS.

            ” just but the majority of white students still have the ability to progress” – have you checked tertiary cost versus average middle class income. Majority of students that can continue without bursary may be white but the majority white students will not be able to continue.

            Also majority of non-white students getting bursaries are from middle class background and since they get it it so easy to get there is very little bite down and push through that is why you get situation where 80% of bursary holders do not make it past the first 2 years. The passionate student excluded due to the colour of skin is forever lost top the industry. We have reached the point long ago that a even if a kid is in the top 5 in matric results in his province he will probably not get a bursary because he is male and white.

            All this snowballs, the ones who make it turn their back on the industry player who told them they were the wrong race or even leaves the country leading to further skills loss buggering the economy even further.

            Proof of my statements can clearly be seen in the likes of Eskom, Transnet, Denel, Telkom who have practicing these racist policies since the late 90’s

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 15:10

            **Scrapped

            Geoff seems afraid to do his job on the boss….

  10. Blood Emperor Trevor

    April 24, 2015 at 10:24

    “Those people” aren’t “interested” in making games comments. Jesus Christ guys, seriously? That’s some winning stereotyping! Be proud.

    Reply

  11. Her Highness the Hipster

    April 24, 2015 at 10:27

    • RinceThis

      April 24, 2015 at 10:43

      Staph making sense!

      Reply

      • Sageville

        April 24, 2015 at 12:17

        Pfft, bringing logic to a fight, no fair!

        Reply

  12. Geoffrey Tim

    April 24, 2015 at 10:33

    Heads up: I’ve instructed comment mods to go wild with their delete buttons – this is a discussion that really should stay on topic.

    Reply

    • Lord Chaos

      April 24, 2015 at 10:36

      Just don’t become overly PC. Tends to do more damage.

      Yes I know, it’s a very touch subject but in my personal opinion it’s pointless.

      Reply

      • Dutch Matrix

        April 24, 2015 at 10:40

        I agree. We are/were allowed to speak our minds to a certain degree in these forums. If this is going to turn into a police state… Not sure I want more of that in my life.

        Reply

        • Lord Chaos

          April 24, 2015 at 10:42

          Not just that. People need to get the [redacted] over themselves.
          My manager is female and great at her job, but we still jape. Some people just get to easily offended and that is pure grade AAA EA

          Reply

        • Hammersteyn

          April 24, 2015 at 10:44

          Nor do I, but sometimes we need to look at the bigger picture.

          Reply

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 10:47

            What bigger picture? The one where I site I frequent, love and I see as the true real bastion of free speech and maturity (to a certain degree) turning into one where I am terrified to say anything out of fear for upsetting someone?
            You know why we are getting so frustrated as a whole? Things that need to be said, discovered and the like will never be happening. Because I am too scared to ask something about the gay community for example, becase I have to be careful of upsetting someone.
            It’s bullshit.

          • Hammersteyn

            April 24, 2015 at 10:53

            Some articles needs more maturity than others. Also posting racial comments (even in jest) is not really apt for an article like this… I dunno if that makes sense or not, but you kinda have to see it from another perspective.

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:03

            But that is my question: How can see things from a different perspective if I am not allowed to question that perspective, and even downright be nasty about it at times? Not on purpose nasty, but nasty in an honestly ignorant way?
            Sometimes the best way forward is to have a fight. Get our hands dirty so to speak, but above all, speak our minds, even if we are wrong.

          • BacchusZA

            April 24, 2015 at 11:35

            There’s a George Carlin quote which came to mind reading your comment. It’s perhaps going off topic / tangent a little, but I feel it applies to what you’re saying about “PC speach”, and how we’ve become so careful about, and have changed, the language we use to avoid offending / hurting peoples’ feelings.

            WALL OF TEXT WARNING :p Pay attention to the last para though, that’s the *really* important part, the rest is largely context.

            “I don’t like words that hide the truth. I don’t like words that conceal
            reality. I don’t like euphemisms, or euphemistic language. And American
            English is loaded with euphemisms. Cause Americans have a lot of trouble
            dealing with reality. Americans have trouble facing the truth, so they
            invent the kind of a soft language to protect themselves from it, and it
            gets worse with every generation. For some reason, it just keeps
            getting worse. I’ll give you an example of that.

            There’s a
            condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting
            person’s nervous system has been stressed to it’s absolute peak and
            maximum. Can’t take anymore input. The nervous system has either (click)
            snapped or is about to snap.

            In the first world war, that
            condition was called shell shock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two
            syllables, shell shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves.

            That
            was seventy years ago. Then a whole generation went by and the second
            world war came along and very same combat condition was called battle
            fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem
            to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shell shock! Battle
            fatigue.

            Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison avenue was
            riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called
            operational exhaustion. Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the
            humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally
            sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might
            happen to your car.

            Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam,
            which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and
            thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no
            surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress
            disorder. Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain
            is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder.

            I’ll
            bet you if we’d of still been calling it shell shock, some of those
            Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the
            time. I’ll betcha. I’ll betcha.”

            As much as you need to exercise common courtesy and consideration towards others – because a punch in the teeth often hurts, if for no other reason :p – it feels like there’s an active move away from calling a thing what it is, last few years especially, which strikes me as intelectually dishonest, unhelpful, and fundamentally unhealthy for society.

            Refusing to call something by its real name, by defining it as other than it is for fear of offending somebody, can only get in the way of dealing effectively with that problem.

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:39

            *Dutch raises from his seat, clapping loudly*

          • RinceThis

            April 24, 2015 at 13:27

            You sir, deserve a Bells.

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 24, 2015 at 11:09

          I’m stupidly fierce when it comes to freedom of speech.. The only things that are allowed to be censored here is racism, hate speech and direct personal attacks.

          I don’t care if someone wants to say he hates gays and black people… that’s his choice. But if they turn into attacks then it’s no longer allowed.

          Hopefully that’s clear… it will never change while I run the site

          Reply

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:18

            You know Gavin, that is great to hear. I would love for our society to be one where I can go “I hate Black People” (Not that I do personally, just an example)
            And someone else can go “But why is that?”
            And I can go “Because they are a violent lot.”
            And the other person can go “But we are not all that violent. Here. Let me show you.”
            Is all I am asking for.
            Oh, and still good to know you are running the show here! Because Geoff needs to be raked over the coals for his spelling/editing!

          • Geoffrey Tim

            April 24, 2015 at 11:20

            I liek to spel gud.

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 11:26

            It’s cute when you try, but we know deep down inside you cringed typing that.

          • Geoffrey Tim

            April 24, 2015 at 11:31

            It hurt me so much. πŸ™

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:33

            Why? Does it have to hurst so bad?
            How can I tell my heart you’re gone?
            Somehow life goes on…
            Old Gospel track you reminded me of…

          • Matthew Holliday

            April 24, 2015 at 11:39

            why does it wurst so bad?

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:42

            The singer’s girl left him.

          • Lord Chaos

            April 24, 2015 at 11:21

            And math. πŸ˜›

          • Matthew Holliday

            April 24, 2015 at 11:33

            yeah, its getting to a point where people would love to be proven wrong.

          • Matthew Holliday

            April 24, 2015 at 11:33

            so being anti-feminist is free game?
            winning, lemme go throw poop at zoe for being a woman

  13. Sageville

    April 24, 2015 at 10:34

    Statistically surveys based on a sample of 253?

    Ja neh…

    Reply

    • Geoffrey Tim

      April 24, 2015 at 10:34

      I think it’s statistically relevant when that sample encompasses the entire industry.

      Reply

      • Sageville

        April 24, 2015 at 10:39

        I agree it’s 100% accurate if it encompasses the entire industry, but whether you can draw trends and conclusions from such a small sample…. I don’t know, my inner statistician doesn’t like.

        Reply

        • Her Highness the Hipster

          April 24, 2015 at 10:42

          unfortunately, that isn’t a small sample but the entire local pool πŸ™ we’re growing, but still so small…

          Reply

          • Blood Emperor Trevor

            April 24, 2015 at 10:45

            That’s what sheGODDAMNIT NOT THE PLACE!

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 10:47

            By sample I mean the data.

        • RinceThis

          April 24, 2015 at 10:42

          Agreed. You can’t. It’s like fishing in a barrel full of hake and then saying hake is the only fish πŸ˜›

          Reply

          • Geoffrey Tim

            April 24, 2015 at 10:46

            Your analogy isn’t on point. It would be more like fishing in a very small rock pool.

          • RinceThis

            April 24, 2015 at 10:46

            I didn’t have a rock pool. Only a barrel. So you could say… I was over a barrel? 0_O

          • Matthew Holliday

            April 24, 2015 at 11:29

            its a very small barrel.

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:35

            Why are there fish in a barrel to start with? Damn you and your animal cruelty!

        • Pariah

          April 24, 2015 at 10:46

          I think a 100% sample gives you a MUCH better stat than a sample of 10000 people representing maybe 1% of the population, and going “well that’s enough to get statistical data from”. Amount of people is more, but sample is much, MUCH more insignificant. Yet statisticians do this ALL the time.

          Reply

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 10:56

            My point is, with a sample is so small, trends such as growth over a year (13 people) could in fact be due co-incidental factors and not attributed to actual industry trends.

            Personally, I never read too much into stats of this nature due, to my concerns mentioned.

          • Matthew Holliday

            April 24, 2015 at 11:30

            its the term “sample” that is throwing this off.
            is it a sample if its the entire thing?

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 11:43

            No, in statistics the word “Sample” refers to the data you are examining, you can have a sample that consists of 100% of the target demographic (this study is an example).

  14. Donovan

    April 24, 2015 at 10:35

    Now that you have raised this very important issue we might as well address some more serious issues. Why is tomb raider a white lady? Why is Mario Italian and not American? Why Sonic the hedgehog and not Sonic the rhino? Rhinos have not received the recognition they deserve. Stick to gaming and leave politics and race out of it, no one cares!

    Reply

    • Lord Chaos

      April 24, 2015 at 10:37

      Spot on.

      Something about religion and politics…

      Reply

      • Donovan

        April 24, 2015 at 10:52

        lol

        Reply

    • Blood Emperor Trevor

      April 24, 2015 at 10:50

      You can talk about more than one issue at a time, right now on this article we’re talking about this one. Maybe save those for another one? Clearly there are people who do care, even if you don’t, which is fine. You also get games that touch on all these kinds of things, as well as those that don’t, which is great, because you can choose. Eg. Spec Ops: The Line. You can play it as an FPS and not pay attention to the story, or you can.

      Reply

  15. Donovan

    April 24, 2015 at 10:49

    How do want to have a constructive discussion about this if you keep deleting comments you do not agree with?

    Reply

    • Lord Chaos

      April 24, 2015 at 10:49

      Was about to mention the deletions.

      Reply

    • Geoffrey Tim

      April 24, 2015 at 10:52

      The only things that have been deleted aren’t of the constructive sort; the only things that have been deleted are racist, sexist, or direct attacks. Same as ever.

      Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:01

      There have only been 2 comments deleted and I have personally put them back and edited out anything unacceptable.

      Please also remember Disqus does have auto spam set which sometimes catches things incorrectly. Especially from non registered accounts. We regularly check the spam filter and release the comments if we see them

      Reply

  16. Umar

    April 24, 2015 at 10:55

    I’m not very sure…I’m a developer and the development staff is 100 percent male, of different races though, we’ve looked for developers and are looking yet none that apply are female. I studied computer science and there was only 5 females in my class which dropped to like 3 in my final year. I’ve studied and worked with a number of different races though. I don’t see what a solution would be to the problem, but there is up and coming projects that aim to teach underprivileged kids how to program and there are initiatives to push and promote technology as a means of upliftment in different communities, I personally feel that it’s going to take a long time, but I believe it will get there, it slowly seeping in to schools and I think a lot of people are seeing the benefits of being tech savvy and how programming especially with the advent mobile app development is becoming an avenue for entrepreneurs.

    Reply

  17. Greylingad

    April 24, 2015 at 10:56

    Oh Lord… A can of worms has just been opened… My view on this has nothing to do with skilled labourers or pushing people into degrees, like @nickhallsa:disqus states, this has a hell of a lot to do with people showing interest in an industry. I can’t force anyone to like Dan Patlansky on guitar, Much the same as saying that SAARKIE doesn’t represent all of south Africas’ cultures. Yes, the SA gaming industry is filled with white males, yes, there is not a lot of diversity, but if someone has a passion for something, they make it happen, come hell or high water, a study like this aggravates me because there is no point to it, what, are we going to get angry at people for not being as passionate about something as we are and therefore don’t want to work in that industry to represent wider diversity? Then we move to the issue of it being a young industry, relaitively speaking the industry is still in it’s foetal state. The total size R53 million, let’s calculate that quickly, $4.35 Mill that’s a slow weekend on Steam….

    Reply

    • GooseZA

      April 24, 2015 at 10:56

      Dan is the man! THE MAAAN!!

      Reply

      • Greylingad

        April 24, 2015 at 11:16

        Yes!! Dan the MAN Patlansky, good lord, that guys’ music is just…

        Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 11:02

      If you are from a township, with no money, and you really want to study game development. You work hard, you get the grades at school and get accepted into university. But you simply don’t have access to the R40k+ to study the game design course at Wits. Because of your good grades though you are offered a bursary by Sasol to study Chemical Engineering. What do you do? What we’ve seen is people choose the Sasol option. That is a barrier to entry. Look at the work GirlHype and Geekulcha are doing, and tell me that other demographics are not interested in game development.

      How did Make Games fix this problem? We made a bursary program. We’ve got two kids now, who wouldn’t otherwise have had the opportunity to formally study game design, now doing it

      Reply

      • Greylingad

        April 24, 2015 at 11:15

        You have a good point! But when it comes to choosing your passion in a relatively small market vs a decently paying job at a Major firm, having food on your table will always win, the same thing with the studying, yes, before you even get to the university you need a PC to at least start and with our country being as poverty stricken as it is, a lot of people don’t get the opportunities to exercise their passion, yes, it is a barrier entry. Also a niche market compared to other countries…

        Reply

        • nickhallsa

          April 24, 2015 at 11:21

          and so you’ve identified the barriers to entry. I think it is important that we try and remove those

          Reply

          • Greylingad

            April 24, 2015 at 11:42

            Hmmm…. in one of my earlier posts I mentioned Dan Patlansky, A guitar Maestro that I would rate one of, if not, the best guitarists in the world, he has released 7 albums already, have been touring since oddly 1998, he’s one of only six Fender Guitar endorsers in South Africa, toured America in 2006/7 with the great blues maestros and have only recently started being recognised. He plays Blues rock music, a genre, like gaming in SA, that has not boomed all that well… in short, he broke through the barrier by just continuing with his love for music and I know how hard he’s worked to get there. Sometimes, we just need to put our heads down and pummel through it….

      • Sageville

        April 24, 2015 at 11:23

        There’s a whole dynamic that swings around culture, opportunity and passion in all sectors of employment in South Africa. We do have to admit that some jobs appeal to certain genders, I’m also sure that the same applies to race in some jobs.

        Think about the diversity of the Minibus Taxi Industry or how many ladies work as bouncers or stope workers. So I don’t think we can simply dismiss that as contributing factor to employee distribution.

        Anyway, interesting discussion.

        Reply

      • HvR

        April 24, 2015 at 11:33

        You will fail.

        You will hurt the industry in the long run.

        But you will feel better about yourself in the end of the day.

        Reply

  18. Vogiir

    April 24, 2015 at 10:57

    I love reading the lazygamer articles, and once in a while i will comment. Bt this article…feels political, like we dont get enough of that on a daily basis.

    Look im all for diversity, i myself work in multi cultured team. But really what does skin colour hav to do with anything? If the industry is steadily growing coz of competent hard working individuals leave it at that.

    Like lord chaos said i dont care if you are a pink midget pony. If u contribute to the growth im all for it….

    But this article really feels like it was dipped in the ANC pool… #dissapointed

    Reply

    • Lord Chaos

      April 24, 2015 at 10:58

      Was about to add:
      Living in SA we deal with this every bloody day. Keep politics out of my games.
      Are we going to attack authors next?

      Reply

      • Sageville

        April 24, 2015 at 11:01

        “Keep politics out of my games.”

        I do agree, gaming is my escape, we have to deal with politics every day in this country, I game to escape that duldrum.

        But I suppose as a site that does cover the gaming industry as a whole, this is a relevant article.

        Reply

      • Dutch Matrix

        April 24, 2015 at 11:14

        Yes. Because every character needs to be written as to not offend anyone.
        The white balloon strolled into the room, and looked at the other white balloon in the room. Nothing much happened after that. Violence against balloons were not tollerated. So was any sexual advances made towards balloons, between consenting balloons.

        Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:00

      From my side, a lot of local developers are very vocal about how gaming isn’t diverse enough and how they do so much to try fix it and then a survey is done and it becomes apparent they are simply talking out of their asses.

      I don’t think this has anything to do with the ANC.. or politics.

      Reply

      • Vogiir

        April 24, 2015 at 11:03

        Yeah i get that, bt i said it feels political etc. I doubt the anc would actually have anything to do with this XD but point taken

        Reply

      • Umar

        April 24, 2015 at 11:04

        It doesn’t have to do with the industry either, but we’re getting there. More and more we’re seeing programs to spread the words and uplift communities through technology. I’ve seen black people in university that doesn’t even know what a mouse is. It is no ONE person/industry’s fault, the problems goes deeper, it goes back to our education system as well. We are getting there…We will get there.

        Reply

      • nickhallsa

        April 24, 2015 at 11:09

        I don’t think you’re giving the local scene enough credit. This year alone I’ve seen more studios hire women. The problem is a lack of skills. I think that is where the focus needs to be done.

        Reply

        • Umar

          April 24, 2015 at 11:14

          I agree completely, I can’t blame an industry or organization when there generally is a lack of skills. I’ve tutored for most part of my University life and I’ve dealt with people that doesn’t even know what a mouse is. There are programs that are uplifting communities through technology, teaching them not just HOW to use a computer, but how to use them to enrich their life. Hell, I’ve read of initiatives to teach kids about programming. I can’t blame MGSA, there is a need for change, and the way they can do it is to support these people and these programs. We can’t just look at numbers and say, oh! hire more people of different races and genders etc…We will get to the point where you’ll be flooded with candidates of different races and genders, but it will take time and it will take much reflection and panel beating of the underlying issues.

          Reply

          • nickhallsa

            April 24, 2015 at 11:20

            This. all of this

  19. SUGBOERIE

    April 24, 2015 at 11:02

    To get diversification in this field there needs to be more exposure that the field exists in South Africa. To create real and long term opportunities for game development in South Africa there also needs to be more investment in the field in order for companies to do outreach programs. Sasol gives out bursaries for chemical engineers to a diverse group of people, hence there will be more diversification in that field. Standard Bank comes and poaches computer science graduates into their grad programs. This is just to show that existing companies need to find a way to make game development more of a viable career but that can only happen with support from private and governmental investment because the companies now just get by and don’t have funds to do what Sasol and Standard bank can do. Conclusion is there needs to be more exposure and funding in the field. This all coming from a black game developer that runs a studio in South Africa. I’m the other percent. πŸ™‚

    Reply

    • Her Highness the Hipster

      April 24, 2015 at 11:03

      you are the 1% πŸ˜›

      Reply

    • Brady miaau

      April 24, 2015 at 11:23

      Your point is very well made sir.

      Reply

    • konfab

      April 24, 2015 at 14:32

      The culture of a developer always reflects on the game. We have Amerifat
      games, French games, Japanese games, even if the game is not specifically about the culture of the developers.

      I would love to see a polished game coming from a studio that represents the views of black South Africans, just as much as I like seeing the games from a white South African studio.

      Personally, the reason why I think that there is a dearth of black game developers is the fact that most black people who are good at coding would get poached by other industries, like Standard Bank ;).

      Reply

  20. David

    April 24, 2015 at 11:04

    Many jobs traditionally have gender domination one way or the other. How many male Netball coaches, nurses, fireman, etc. etc. do you know of? How many female bricklayers, truck-drivers etc etc. do you know of?

    Is that a problem? Not necessarily. You wanting to see something happen, doesn’t mean it’s how it ought to be. What are the merits of your outlook?

    More black men and women in the South African games industry. Cool fine. Why? Because it’s the right thing to have right? Why? Because we it’s more representative. How are we going to do it? Write an article about how disappointing it is that White Men “dominate” – charged words considering the context of our country’s past. Errr… okay if you must.

    I guess “White Men Make Up the Majority of the South African Games Industry” would’ve been less charged.

    Perhaps “The South African Games Industry Needs More Diversity” wouldn’t have gotten as many clicks.

    By creating articles like this, in the manner that you have, you are drawing a line in the sand. Your angle is confrontational and you can’t be surprised by the responses you get. Very few of those you are trying to attract into the Games Industry are going to read “WHITE MEN DOMINATE THE SOUTH AFRICAN INDUSTRY” and think, gee willikers, I’m black and I’m looking forward to joining this ‘dominated’ industry.

    Then when people call you out on this angle (which reversed would be racist), it’s all “oh what a hostile industry.” And you really keep hitting that word ‘dominated’ – you should be clear it’s the numbers that are dominated and not white men dominating.

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:07

      I think that’s a little harsh to Zoe since that headline is 100% statistically correct…

      Yeah the headline could be more boring and mundane… but that defeats the point of a headline

      Reply

      • Vogiir

        April 24, 2015 at 11:11

        I agree with you both, but theres alot of thruth in what david has said

        Reply

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 24, 2015 at 11:12

          Oh absolutely, but we’ve always been controversial and confrontational so I don’t see the problem there.

          No one is feeling woe is me on the team don’t worry.

          This article is intended to spark thought and discussion. 100+ comments in and I’m thinking Zoe has done her job well here

          Reply

          • RinceThis

            April 24, 2015 at 11:20

            Totally.

          • RinceThis

            April 24, 2015 at 11:23

            Also, I think @disqus_3ihQj32EWp:disqus deserves a raise and bonus now. Thank you.

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:46

            lazygamer staff gets paid???

          • Blood Emperor Trevor

            April 24, 2015 at 11:46

            Matty even gets danger pay for all those DOTA articles.

          • RinceThis

            April 24, 2015 at 11:54

            In Cabbages.

          • Her Highness the Hipster

            April 24, 2015 at 14:44

            i totally get paid in comments and upvotes πŸ˜›

          • David

            April 24, 2015 at 11:28

            Sure, but don’t be surprised when we’re all here commenting and someone from outside the industry sees this headline and goes… well fk that then, I’m going to do something else.

            It’s not fair of me to be harsh on the author of this specific post sure, but I’m seeing this kind of thing everywhere and it’s just unlucky I’m unloading the frustration here I guess.

          • Gavin Mannion

            April 24, 2015 at 11:35

            Yeah it’s a touchy subject and we get that. Hopefully the people who are interested in this topic keep it in this article as I agree we don’t want this messing all over our nice hobby

          • Dutch Matrix

            April 24, 2015 at 11:47

            I think David is one of those guys like me, that would read this article title, sigh and go “Now how did I personally fuck up this country AGAIN?”

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 11:49

            You people!

          • Sageville

            April 24, 2015 at 11:39

            White male baddy!

  21. GooseZA

    April 24, 2015 at 11:06

    Gotta say, this article feels a bit unnecessary and the imbalance (at least the gender one) has more to do with interest in the occupation than anything else in my opinion.

    Back in my varsity days, my IS / programming classes were 90% male and I highly doubt that had to do with any kind of discrimination etc. The girls were all doing marketing, accounts and economics. I think there were maybe 5 girls in a class of 60 people.

    Straight off the bat, that means more males are likely to end up in the game making industry (in a programming role at least). Nothing to do with discrimination (which may very well exist, but is not necessarily the cause of the low numbers).

    Yes, roughly 50% of gamers are, in fact, female but being a gamer and MAKING games are two very different things and require very different skills and interests.

    Transformation is important. Of course. But at some point you’ve gotta surely say “Hey, maybe they’re just not that into it”

    Reply

  22. Brady miaau

    April 24, 2015 at 11:09

    You cannot force issues.

    “These statistics show a dire need to transformation in the industry”

    IT in general

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:11

      I’m not so sure about that.

      I was in an IT meeting yesterday and there were 18 people in the meeting.

      7 white males
      9 females
      8 black people

      so that’s pretty diverse. Granted not as diverse as our country but still quite a change from 20 years ago

      Reply

      • Lord Chaos

        April 24, 2015 at 11:14

        So in closing, you were in a meeting with 18 people.

        Reply

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 24, 2015 at 11:33

          23, I didn’t count the bosses in the meeting… (1 white and 2 indian)

          Reply

          • Blood Emperor Trevor

            April 24, 2015 at 11:34

            That’s.. er… 21 *cough*

          • Admiral Chief

            April 24, 2015 at 11:47

            (Lazygamer math)

          • Gavin Mannion

            April 24, 2015 at 11:48

            Shudup… I have an excuse…

            okay no I don’t

          • Greylingad

            April 24, 2015 at 11:53

            I had a teacher tell me to take my hands out of my pockets once, because I answered eleven instead of ten for 6+4…

          • Brady miaau

            April 24, 2015 at 11:35

            Can get long, meetings like that. Hopefully kept on track by strong leader

      • Brady miaau

        April 24, 2015 at 11:19

        Wow, that is very diverse.

        Perhaps I need to get out more?

        In my exp, I see very few females in IT or Engineering in general. Glad to hear it is getting better.

        But I imagine you are exposed to the large corporates far more than I am, so perhaps that is where the shift is starting.

        Race is good, there seems some very good diversity there. And some fresh and new ideas because of that diversity.

        Reply

        • Greylingad

          April 24, 2015 at 11:28

          I’m going to give you a few figures:
          When I started studying Engineering, there were about 20 ladies in our classes, out of about 250 students, starting on the first day, (this was a good 13 years ago) by year two, we had been reduced to about 150 students still studying engineering( mainly electrical as the main subject changes were only involved in about year 3) with 7 ladies still remaining, end year, two were left, one went for Process Instrumentation, the other Clinical Engineering (electronic medical equipment), I’ve just stared at a series of CVs, and finally there is a growth in female representatives in the industry, so it’s nice to see change and diversity, it just takes a hell of a long time…

          Reply

          • Brady miaau

            April 24, 2015 at 11:31

            I have worked in the engineering for a few years now (13?) in several firms.

            I think your comment is spot on. I know several female engineers, but some said when studying it was difficult to watch other woman drop out like that.

          • Greylingad

            April 24, 2015 at 11:47

            Exactly, I have an Afrikaans saying, it goes, ‘n aanhouer wen…

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 24, 2015 at 11:34

          I actually work for a small IT firm…. BUT on one thing we do agree there are not many women in the industry.

          The women in the meeting were testers, BA’s and HR…. no engineering employees are female in the company.

          Reply

          • Brady miaau

            April 24, 2015 at 11:39

            There does seem to a number of woman BA’s. Have wondered about that in the wider industry.

            I see no difference between the work of a man or a woman.
            On my dev team is a particular woman (1 of 2) and I have noted she is more organised than most of the other members.. Is this because she is just more organised or some sort of male / female difference? I have no idea!

  23. nickhallsa

    April 24, 2015 at 11:14

    For everyone saying that “black” people aren’t interested in making games, the Ghanaian, Nigerian and Kenyan game development industries would like to disagree

    Reply

    • David

      April 24, 2015 at 11:30

      What is going on in their culture, politics, etc right now? You’re ignoring the context of their lives. Maybe it has something to do with that and what is going on in those countries right now.

      It sounds like you’re saying because those “black” people are making games, these “black” people should want to as well. That’s simplistic at best and perhaps even more racist than you think.

      Reply

      • nickhallsa

        April 24, 2015 at 11:32

        So you agree then that South African culture, politics and economical situation might be preventing more people of colour entering the industry? I’d say that that is a barrier to entry then

        Reply

        • David

          April 24, 2015 at 11:38

          No, but it’s White Men that dominate the industry right? With their interest in the field, how dare they?

          Perhaps going to the government with a plan is a better option than bemoaning privileged white dudes. It worked for the National Film and Video Foundation.

          Reply

          • nickhallsa

            April 24, 2015 at 11:49

            “Perhaps going to the government with a plan is a better option than bemoaning privileged white dudes. It worked for the National Film and Video Foundation.” Agreed. Good thing we are talking to the likes of the DTI, ICD, Department of Arts and Culture, CiTi, and even the NFVF πŸ™‚

          • David

            April 24, 2015 at 11:55

            Cool, in the meantime don’t give the impression that “White men” don’t want a diverse games industry – it’s simply not true. I think we all agree it would be amazing.

            Rather spread good news, it’s more conducive to attracting fresh blood – it goes without saying.

          • nickhallsa

            April 24, 2015 at 11:57

            I don’t think it was ever said in the survey (which is the only thing I wrote), nor in Zoe’s article that white men don’t want a more diverse industry. In fact I’d say all of our members, are all for it.

          • Gavin Mannion

            April 24, 2015 at 12:12

            I don’t think the article states that in any way either….

          • David

            April 24, 2015 at 12:19

            “We routinely lose women in the industry because it is viewed as hostile”

            Saying “White men dominate” then saying “We routinely lose women in the industry because it is viewed as hostile” – what would you impression be of that?

            I think it might be, the industry is hostile because white men dominate it… I don’t know why it’s so difficult to see that people are easily misled and words easily manipulated to suit goals.

    • Vogiir

      April 24, 2015 at 14:26

      Think that was read out of context or written wrong. Seeing the article is about the racial difference or lack there of in the industry here in SA

      Just pointing that out

      Reply

    • konfab

      April 24, 2015 at 14:35

      We have a worse education system than all those countries you mention. If you want a reason why there is no diversity, that is it.

      Reply

  24. nickhallsa

    April 24, 2015 at 11:18

    One last point. No one is advocating that white ownership be handed over, or that we institute quota’s, and we definitely do not want white men to stop coming into the industry. All this study shows is that there is a skew in who is in the industry. We know (by looking at other countries, and the make up of our own country) that the skew *shouldn’t* be this much. An issue has been identified, the next step is to identify why the issue exists, and then act on it.

    A more diverse industry means the industry will get bigger, and for you as game players means more interesting and different games. I don’t see how this is a bad thing.

    Reply

    • Lord Chaos

      April 24, 2015 at 11:20

      Not disagreeing, but I see a lot of comments on funding.
      The industry is still really small and young, as it grows so will the opportunities to create bursaries.

      Reply

      • nickhallsa

        April 24, 2015 at 11:22

        Oh yes, the industry is tiny, this is not in dispute. But I’d rather we at least try take an active role and attempt to fix the problem, rather than wait for it to be “solved” by someone else

        Reply

    • Greylingad

      April 24, 2015 at 11:22

      “An issue has been identified, the next step is to identify why the issue exists, and then act on it.”
      Excellent point! I also believe that we should try and expand the industry to everyone in the country and enable everyone to enjoy this little endeavour we call our hobby. The only hiccup is funding, but that’s a story for another, rainy day….

      Reply

    • Audacity (or-das-it-eeee-eee)

      April 24, 2015 at 11:38

      Look, from a male-indian upcoming indie-developer point of view, the game development industry is still a very foggy room that many wouldn’t step into without massive amounts of thought, i think the cultural thing is to get a job and support your family and pay the bills.

      The problem is that because of the foggy room idea, the unknown of whether one could actually make it in an industry that is in its infant stages in our country, that it’s scary to alot of people and they maybe don’t have the financial capabilities to take the risk, also because alot of people aren’t that interested in looking for more creative fields to work in, that they just don’t even consider it.

      I think if we showed communities of all colours how much easier it is these days to get into the industry and what a great and supportive industry it is, that more people wouldn’t be afraid to approach it.

      My goals are to start a development studio and bring out great ideas into beautiful games that atleast a handful of people can enjoy, and if more people enjoy it then great, job well done. Yes there are barriers, but honestly I don’t feel those barriers have anything to do with the colour of my skin, the barriers are basically how much or little i’m willing to limit myself, and how much work i’m willing to put in

      Reply

      • nickhallsa

        April 24, 2015 at 11:53

        Can we expect to see you at one of the community meet-up? πŸ™‚

        Reply

        • Audacity (or-das-it-eeee-eee)

          April 24, 2015 at 12:25

          Indeed, very soon, I just missed the last one (couldn’t make it), still want to meet you guys

          Reply

  25. Sageville

    April 24, 2015 at 11:35

    Question to the panel:

    Looking at the stats above, do you think the race distribution is due to co-incidental factors or an active drive by the industry to effect a desired outcome?

    Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 11:37

      Almost entirely co-incidental I believe

      Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:38

      I think it’s a passive effect of the main players being privileged white males , I seriously doubt any of them are doing it on purpose.

      Reply

      • Audacity (or-das-it-eeee-eee)

        April 24, 2015 at 11:41

        I have to agree, I think the industry is just too young and given time we’ll see more diversity enter the industry

        Reply

  26. Lothy

    April 24, 2015 at 11:42

    My question is, does every industry have to have equal diversification? I had a son recently and sadly he was in the neonatal unit for a week. In my time visiting him there, all the nurses were all women. So do I need to now go toitio outside there office for more diversification. In fact even in the normal wards there were zero men. Is it such a crisis if there are more men in games development?
    I sometimes feel ppl like to whine for the sake of whining.
    TGIF…

    Reply

    • nickhallsa

      April 24, 2015 at 11:45

      Maybe the question should be why aren’t there more male nurses?

      The survey is just showing what industry looks like at the moment, nothing more, nothing less. I don’t believe that it is like this simply because there is a lack of interest from women and people of colour. I’d like to know why the stats are what they are. That is the next step.

      Reply

      • Lothy

        April 24, 2015 at 12:14

        Ok lets put it like this. Beauticians are predominantly women, so do we need an intervention here? My point is does it really matter? I worry that people want to paint everything with the same brush, but its not needed. If people feel its s tottie-fest, then promote the industry better.

        But when I see an article heading “White Men dominate SA industry” I want to spit nails. And LG is purposely stoking the fire with making controversial headings like that.

        I read that article and this particular quote is such a copy/paste statement that is so well known in SA, ”
        Steps need to be taken to try and change this, so that our industry is more inclusive and reflects the makeup of South Africa.”. What is SA’s current makeup!?
        The make up of SA is “sense of entitlement”, so until such time that changes and people become responsible for themselves, it will never change. I have personally worked with the “makeup of SA” at various government facilities, and all it is the “makeup of SA” given a salary, not a job, a salary to do nothing. And then I as a contractor has to come in and do the work for them. I have taken photos of ppl sleeping on the job, or they will flatten an entire series in 1 day. Want to stop certain types dominating anything, then sort out urself 1st.

        Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 11:47

      I agree with most of that.. some industries are always skewed one way or another and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

      However if 50% of gamers (including filthy casuals) are women then it is extremely bizarre that they don’t feature more in the industry.

      Remember maknig games includes producers, writers, artists and engineers to name a few. Working purely on stereotypes the number of female artists should be significantly higher.

      Also, how could you make a game for the black population of South Africa if you yourself haven’t lived that culture. It would come across as condescending. So there is a need for diversity to grow the industry.

      Reply

      • Sageville

        April 24, 2015 at 11:52

        “how could you make a game for the black population of South Africa if you yourself haven’t lived that culture”

        An interesting perspective….

        Reply

  27. HvR

    April 24, 2015 at 11:45

    Oi people over analysing a simple problem.

    Question 1:
    Why is the (very very very small) industry dominated by white males?
    Because 20 years ago people using the industry was 90% white males between the ages of 10 and 20, because of stigmatization outside the group and there was almost no non-white middle class.

    Question 2:
    De-stigimitize and creating a bigger all-inclusive middle-class.

    Quick fixes like racially discriminatory bursaries make the givers feel good about themselves but hurt the industry in the long wrong by excluding or alienating people entering the job market or starting studying from the said industry.

    Learn from history Eskom, Sasol, Telkom, Denel tried this 15 years and it didn’t work and now they are feeling it.

    Reply

  28. Hendrik

    April 24, 2015 at 11:49

    If we take the knitting industry (if there is such a thing) and it is dominated by woman, does it mean that women are making it difficult for men and something needs to change, or does it mean that women are more interested in knitting?

    Reply

  29. Greylingad

    April 24, 2015 at 12:06

    I find it funny that we as South Africans, with the slightest mention of race, equality, genders, job representation, jump to grab our pitchforks and steak knives, where the only thing, the essence, if you want, of this article is in good nature, one that merely mentions a few flaws and we just bulldoze it to reduce it to nothing but rubble… Is this what we have become? Instead of asking ourselves what we could do to incite change, we rather sit and complain. I’m sorry if this post offends you, but if that is the case…well…maybe we should consider working together rather than against each other.

    Reply

  30. Labey-Kun

    April 24, 2015 at 12:11

    Well someone was poked with a stick to write this article.

    Reply

    • Greylingad

      April 24, 2015 at 12:14

      Either that or shoved into oncoming traffic on the Nurburgring…

      Reply

  31. Josh Strauss

    April 24, 2015 at 12:24

    I posted this further down but I am posting it again:

    I’m all for people choosing their profession and having accessibility to said profession, however, why is there always a drive to force an issue of making certain industries ‘more representative’ of females?

    Why does it always seem like a one way street? For example I never hear about a drive to get more male beauty therapists, hairdressers, teachers etc. There are male dominated industries and female dominated industries, is there really anything wrong with that? As long as females are not precluded from entering a male dominated profession and visa versa then I do not see an issue.

    This utopian drive for perfectly representative industries which have the right number of males and females split into the specific racial groups needs to stop. For me no discrimination = no problem.

    Discrimination is another matter and should be tackled but it is vastly different to representation.

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 12:50

      My opinion on this is that 50% of the gaming market are female. Therefore it would make sense financially to have more women making games as they are more likely to understand what appeals to women.

      It’s purely for the growth of the industry not some white knighting crusade (for me at least)

      Reply

      • HvR

        April 24, 2015 at 13:58

        Counter argument is that the spread across genders is a very recent shift and that people becoming interested in gaming older than 21 will not change the industry demographic since that means a complete change in career paths and huge drop in income.

        Also you have to take casual gamers out of the equation, since a casual gamer will most likely not be interested in the technical side of gaming and thus not develop an interest in the technical side of how you make a game.

        The current demographics of the industry is due to the people aged 12 to 20 that was really interested in gaming 15 to 20 years ago.

        Good news is that there should be a natural progression towards more diversity since there is more diversity in the kids serious about gaming.

        Reply

  32. Tsitsi Chiumya

    April 24, 2015 at 12:32

    Black people are super interested in the games industry. The major concern is that they are not particularly connected with the so called “relevant” circles. It cost a hell of a lot to travel to some of these events and without transport and internet its almost impossible. I think board games are something that will close the gap. Physical and board games are huge in small communities around Africa. If we could get support for the development of these games and show South Africans that games can be made in any given context then there will be a greater involvement. At the moment the games industry seems a bit marginalised, take this idea away and we will have great diverse products.

    Reply

  33. RustedFaith

    April 24, 2015 at 13:46

    We have quite a few black guys in our clan, its all about accessibility as well. The console scene has more black/coloured players than whites in my experience.

    Reply

  34. AmandaWhereTo

    April 24, 2015 at 13:53

    How much of this is based in cultural differences I wonder? And secondly, was this point (and the millions of other considerations) even considered? Seems like someone just saw a bunch of numbers and immediately threw their sh*t in the air without thinking too much. I was at school with loads of wealthy black kids and I think literally none of them we’re remotely interested in gaming.

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 24, 2015 at 13:55

      I’d check the comment 2 down from here

      “Black people are super interested in the games industry….”

      Reply

      • AmandaWhereTo

        April 24, 2015 at 14:23

        Lol, ye well, that’s one guy simply saying that isn’t it πŸ™‚ Kind of like my narrow little perspective that I pointed out based on my own isolated experience. Doesn’t make it true or accurate in the slightest. If only it were that easy. It’s just that coming from an information background myself I know of the intricacies of statistical analysis and how people tend to totally screw it up and then throw around their “educated” opinions willy-nilly for all to consume. I’m not saying this perception is necessarily incorrect, just probably not very well considered.

        Reply

  35. Thats_how_I_Troll

    April 24, 2015 at 14:18

    Let me guess… South Africa’s swim team is next….

    Reply

  36. Mike De Fleuriot

    April 24, 2015 at 14:22

    If you can code good and have boobs, there is no reason why you can not join in. Unless of course, you can show that these gaming studios are actively rejecting all black female applicants. You do have a list of black female game coders who have tried and failed to secure a position in these studios, right?

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 25, 2015 at 09:01

      If you read the comments below you will see where Nick Hall, MGSA President, mentions that black people do enter the industry but are then poached by corporates in other engineering fields.

      Again no one is saying the white male dominance is being forced

      Reply

  37. JJNutter

    April 24, 2015 at 14:25

    I’m a game developer (among other things) and I am also mixed race which places me in the minority of dev’s in this country. Frankly I could less if there should be more people of “colour” in the industry because the white man dominates.

    If you are developing great app’s, games or various kinds of software then who cares who dominates the industry? I want quality. When I want to purchase a game, the last thing on my mind is “Did a black or white dude make this? Did females or males make this?”.
    I just want a quality and enjoyable product, noting more nothing less.

    This race crap really irritates me…..back to coding for me where I just see…well code and not people.

    Reply

    • Ed Beukes

      April 24, 2015 at 15:14

      I’m really happy that, like me, you get to do something you love. I want everyone to be able to make games if the want to, that’s why it’s important to know where the might be potential problems and trying to identify and remove barriers into the industry. It’s not something that has to be forced, but without any action it will never change.

      Reply

  38. Thats_how_I_Troll

    April 24, 2015 at 14:57

    My letter of apology:

    I am sorry for being an entrepreneur
    I am sorry for creating solutions for everyone, regardless of race or gender
    I am sorry for adding to the skill level for this country
    I am sorry for paying tax
    I am sorry for having a job
    I am sorry that it is raining today
    I am sorry that the previous one was a lie… It is Sunny outside
    I am sorry for using my mind
    I am sorry for creating work for people, even though those jobs were for all
    I am sorry for the help I had in setting up networks for the government funded college which betters the future of all (Although 80% of the people attending the college is black)
    I am sorry that those guys at the college made a success of their lives after their studies
    I am sorry I studied and want to add to the community
    I am sorry if I am skilled
    I am sorry that I have paid my student loan off
    I am sorry for assisting people in getting connected to the internet
    I am sorry I took it upon myself to make a success of my life

    I am sorry for the training centre I run on Saturdays,to better the skills of the guys working on the floor regardless of their gender or race.
    I am sorry that I am trying to improve society
    I am sorry for being the best person I could possibly

    I am sorry that I have to say sorry for stuff you would have usually have been proud of.
    Sorry South Arfica (intended)

    Reply

    • Ed Beukes

      April 24, 2015 at 15:00

      It’s cool. No one is blaming you. We are just trying to help people that want to get into games but still have some barriers to entry that they can’t necessarily overcome on their own. πŸ™‚

      Reply

      • Thats_how_I_Troll

        April 24, 2015 at 15:03

        That is the thing Ed. I even assist people to get past those obstacles/barriers… But I am an afrikaans white male…. So f@#$ me 2

        Reply

        • Ed Beukes

          April 24, 2015 at 15:04

          I’m also an Afrikaans white male. I don’t see your point?

          Reply

        • Umar

          April 24, 2015 at 15:12

          No one is blaming white people.

          Reply

        • Her Highness the Hipster

          April 26, 2015 at 11:26

          no one is blaming white people – article is meant to point out that women and other races aren’t as present in the industry. good jumping off point to find out why and what (if anything) can and should be done. the more diverse the game makers, the more unique and interesting the games πŸ™‚

          Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 25, 2015 at 09:00

      I don’t see any blame being placed on white males here.. seems like a knee jerk reaction to other problems in South Africa

      Reply

      • Thats_how_I_Troll

        April 29, 2015 at 12:08

        So what are the Demographics of your company?

        Reply

  39. Aussious

    April 24, 2015 at 17:18

    Look from my own personal experience as a black person, the majority of serious or hard-core gamers in SA are white males occasionally white females or Asian so to me this comes as no surprise. We always joke in my circle about how besides me and another friend of mine who games online all the other black dudes we roll with only own the latest version of FIFA or Need for Speed and that’s as far as their interest goes when it comes to games. The majority of black South African adult gamers are casual gamers and typically never own more than 2 games and rarely ever game u alone or online. The younger crowd is where the diversity is, a lot of the black kids that grew up in the PS2 era and thereafter are serious gamers and extremely skilled in the diversity of genres from your Tekkens,Call of Duty and the likes those are the guys that are probably gonna make the difference in the market. We need more black hard-core gamers in SA its the only way we can grow the market locally and expand the interest amongst the majority, more interest means more sales and revenue which will lead to better investment by your multinationals and less situations like the whole Titanfall incident.

    Reply

  40. Ed Beukes

    April 24, 2015 at 17:21

    There are some things that I think have gotten lost during the discourse over this article.

    Firstly, the survey done by Make Games South Africa(MGSA) is not, as far as I know, done with any specific goal in mind. The data captured is a resource that is used in various ways by association to grow the industry in a healthy way. It is simply a recording of the current state of the industry.

    Secondly, the article presented here only serves as one reporters interpretation of said data. The data is freely available and anyone can go look at it and draw their own conclusions. The way I read it the intention seems to be an introductory summary of the data, only highlighting some of the things that was of particular interest to the writer.

    With that in mind, it’s neither MGSA’s or Lazygamer’s(I presume) intention to assign blame to anyone. Statement’s like “The industry is 91% white male owned” is not suggesting that these owners are in some way responsible for other people not joining. Many of these owners have in fact been working towards creating new possibilities for non-white, non-male people to enter the industry. It is a symptom of a problem that has to be investigate and addressed.

    The ideal is not to have diversity for diversity’s sake. The ideal is to afford anyone that wishes to do so, the opportunity to choose to become part of making games. We are not there yet. There are still too many barriers to entry that we need to overcome, before we can say that anyone not making games is doing so by choice.

    I hope that this post was helpful for whoever made it this far. πŸ™‚

    Reply

    • Blood Emperor Trevor

      April 24, 2015 at 17:58

      Well said – bit too much knee-jerking going on.

      Reply

    • D.Zoolander

      April 24, 2015 at 18:20

      Agreed. Although I’ve never worked in the South African gaming sector, I’ve worked for two LARGE South African I.T. compaines in the past five years and can easily say that the number of black, indian, colored, etc. staff EASILY outnumber the white staff, both male and female. And this is in departments such as I.T., development, user-support, etc. so please I can easily say that this article and “statistics” are pure garbage at best.

      Reply

      • Ed Beukes

        April 24, 2015 at 23:41

        The statistics that the article references has a very narrow focus. It only contains information about the South African video games industry. The data is as accurate as it can be.

        It does not however cover any other industries which would normally be associated with this kind of technical industry, like user-support for instance. The disciplines it does cover that overlap (like programming) only focuses on people applying that skill as a game developer.

        Reply

        • Gavin Mannion

          April 25, 2015 at 08:58

          The stats are actually only about the videogame development industry, when you take into consideration the media industry, PR industry and distribution industry I can promise you there are plenty more females involved.

          However right now off the top of my head I’m struggling to think of any black male in the industry, but then again I’ve never really paid much attention to it.

          Reply

  41. D.Zoolander

    April 24, 2015 at 17:40

    This article could only have been written by Zoe. Sad that I used to respect and value your opinion.

    Reply

    • D.Zoolander

      April 24, 2015 at 18:22

      And for interests sake, please tell me the staff demographics of Lazygamer.net? This website has become such a Social Justice Warrior site but it’s coming across more hypocritical than anything else. Really just another click-bait website.

      Reply

      • Ed Beukes

        April 24, 2015 at 18:34

        I agree that the click bait heading sucks, but I’m not sure what you are worried about?

        The article clearly and accurately summarizes the data found in the survey. It contains one or two personal concerns from the author but is otherwise presented as a convenience if you don’t want to read the whole report.

        There is no call to action for anyone to do something. There is no agenda being forwarded. As I posted earlier. No one is advocating diversity for diversity’s sake. There is no blame to assign, only potential problems to identify.

        Reply

      • Gavin Mannion

        April 25, 2015 at 08:56

        Staff demographics are as follows

        1 x White English Male
        1 x Asian Male
        1 x American Female
        1 x White South African Male
        2 x Portuguese somethings… not entirely sure yet.

        The last time I opened a position for employment I received 0 black applications, 2 Indian applications, 2 female applications and around 50 white male applications.

        I think the SJW split in the company is around 50% on each side

        Reply

        • D.Zoolander

          April 27, 2015 at 16:57

          So American is a race now? Interesting. So let’s say that 83% of your staff is non-white according to the stats you provided for arguments sake. OMG Lazygamer is dominated by white employees with no racial diversity!!! WHA WHA WHA!!! See? it’s easy to write sensationalist headlines when the reality is that you had no candidates of colour apply for positions available, even though you tried. And that is why everyone is complaining about this article

          Reply

  42. Braiden Becker

    April 24, 2015 at 22:49

    I really hope this isn’t another “let’s shame successful businesses because they’re of the forbidden white skin tone which is bad and illegal because reasons but also promptly forget about black only businesses because we support that so we don’t look like racists.”

    Reply

  43. Tulipdame

    April 25, 2015 at 07:26

    You should take this crap down. You are dragging the gaming community’s name through shit. We are never worried about race or gender and now you putting focus on it. It should NEVER be about race or gender, but about skill, abilities, creativity and ccopmetency. You disappoint me! This is really a sickening article. I expect better. Everyone expects better. If the white dude can do a better job than the black dude, the white dude should get the job. This focus is driving this cou try into the ground. I honestly no longer feel like supporting LG.

    Reply

    • Gavin Mannion

      April 25, 2015 at 08:54

      Did you read the article or just the headline? It’s about an internal survey the local industry took and at no point is anything stated against white males

      Reply

      • Tulipdame

        April 26, 2015 at 15:49

        Yes, I read the article. And the focus isn’t good. “Concerned about the ownership” and “not really representative” because it is dominated by white males?
        No transformation is NEEDED. It’s not about race or gender, it is about interest. Most women, gamers or not, aren’t interested in that line of work. Just because they enjoy it as a hobby, doesn’t mean they have to do it as a job. And it’s the same with black people.

        Reply

  44. Andrew Shaw

    April 25, 2015 at 11:27

    Ugh, I find these kind of threads painful.

    Unlike chemical engineering and other highly skilled programs, as long as you have the internet, a half decent computer and the need, you can learn game development in the comfort of your own home.

    And I’m pretty sure that’s how the majority of game developers in SA have done it.

    It’s affinity and attraction, not exposure and opportunity. What people love and are passionate about will drive their careers. I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of game designer/developers in S.A.are white Afrikaans men. Does this mean we need to target non-Afrikaans white people as well to create even more diversity? No, they just like playing games and are more inclined to want to design games than anyone else.

    Gaming design in SA is still so young, let it grow naturally, don’t start poking it just because some statistics paint an out of context picture.

    If you show that you have talent, regardless of your skin colour or gender, you will be hired.

    Reply

    • Her Highness the Hipster

      April 26, 2015 at 11:23

      Nothing in the article is saying white males should be sorry for their roles in the industry. It’s just pointing out the lack of women or people of other races. Now the industry needs to look at barriers to entry as to why a broader range of people aren’t entering into the field – some points raised in the comment section refer to corporates poaching the talented people of other races so that they go into programming for them rather than making games.
      Around the world, the industry is predominantly owned and comprised of white males (although normally not to this degree). However, it’s interesting to look at why this is and if greater diversity/representation could result in better games with more universal appeal.

      Reply

  45. Guest

    April 26, 2015 at 08:23

    Read this article by lazygamer< i started working online, completing some basic jobs that only requires from you a computer and internet access and I am happier than ever… It's been 6 months since i started this and i got paid so far total of 36,000 bucks… Basicly i profit close to 80 bucks/h and work for 3-4 hrs most of the days.Best part to whole this thing is that you can decide when to work yourself and for how long and you get a paycheck

    at the end of each week. Full Inof here

    Reply

  46. Guest

    April 26, 2015 at 10:48

    GO yahoo google youtube and lazygamer..< i started working online, completing some basic jobs that only requires from you a computer and internet access and I am happier than ever… It's been 6 months since i started this and i got paid so far total of 36,000 bucks… Basicly i profit close to 80 bucks/h and work for 3-4 hrs most of the days.Best part to whole this thing is that you can decide when to work yourself and for how long and you get a paycheck

    at the end of each week. SEE DETAIL HERE’S<–

    ————————–

    Reply

  47. Guest

    April 27, 2015 at 08:27

    What’a article by lazygamer< i started working online, completing some basic jobs that only requires from you a computer and internet access and I am happier than ever… It's been 6 months since i started this and i got paid so far total of 36,000 bucks… Basicly i profit close to 80 bucks/h and work for 3-4 hrs most of the days.Best part to whole this thing is that you can decide when to work yourself and for how long and you get a paycheck

    at the end of each week. Full Inof here

    Reply

  48. WitWolfy

    April 27, 2015 at 18:08

    “rainbow nation”

    Reply

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