Home Entertainment [SPOILER WARNING] We need to talk about the Avengers: Endgame finale

[SPOILER WARNING] We need to talk about the Avengers: Endgame finale

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WARNING: THIS ARTICLE CONTAINS MAJOR SPOILERS FOR AVENGERS: ENDGAME! DO NOT CONTINUE UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN IT!

Avengers: Endgame opened in cinemas worldwide last night, and it is the comic book blockbuster event of the decade. There really is no way to overstate that as the 22nd entry in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is the exclamation point on what many would have considered an impossible dream 11 years ago. And yet, here we are. And we have some things to say about it.

Tracy has already written a completely spoiler-free review of Endgame earlier this week. This won’t be a review and it most definitely will not be spoiler-free. So let this serve as the final SPOILER WARNING as I’m about to do a dissection of several major plot points and the serious head-scratching this seminal superhero spectacle inspired in me. Scroll past the poster to continue.

As so often is the case, it was wibbly wobbly time travel stuff that caused said head-scratching. For while Endgame offers a very emotionally satisfying conclusion to the entire MCU up to the point, it often tossed logic straight out the window when it came to the Avengers’ plan to undo Thanos’ actions from Infinity War. It started out simple enough: After their original plan fails the heroes split up into teams and use the Quantum Realm to travel back in time to the various points in their personal history where they’ve encountered the individual Infinity Stones. Besides for giving us a literal trip down memory lane as we revisit the events from The Avengers, Thor: The Dark World, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.1, Infinity War and more, the team will steal the various Stones and then return to their own time to forge a new Infinity Gauntlet that they can use to snap everybody back into existence.

Bruce Banner – in his new Professor Hulk form – even explained how they weren’t going to change the timeline, as that would be impossible since the past has and always will have happened and any changes would just create branching alternate universe timelines while not fixing their own. Instead, they would change their present using the Stones, and then return them to the exact moment they took them from, ensuring that time flowed exactly as it always has and nobody was the wiser.

Except that things go awry in multiple places, pretty quickly. For example, instead of being captured and taken to Asgard at the end of the events of The Avengers, Loki escapes with the Tesseract (and probably right into his Disney+ solo series which is rumoured to feature time travel). Also while visiting Asgard in 2014, Thor collects his original hammer, Mjolnir, which Hela would destroy years later in Thor: Ragnarok.

Most importantly though, thanks to some unintentional cybernetic mind-melding between the Nebula from 2019 (well, 2023 if you want to get specific and include the 5-year jump after Infinity War) and the Nebula from 2014, the Thanos of that time learns of the Avengers’ plans before he ever even got his hands on his first Infinity Stone. Using this knowledge, Thanos follows the Avengers back to their present. He’s not quick enough to stop Bruce from using a newly constructed Infinity Gauntlet made out of Tony’s armour and bringing back everybody that had been snapped out of existence, but Thanos immediately rains down destruction on the heroes.

Cue an epic battle unlike anything we’ve ever seen before as a resurrected Doctor Strange rallies an army of other heroes to support the other Avengers who are on the edge of defeat at Thanos’ hands again. There are huge fan service beats (CAP USING MJOLNIR!) and we get an incredibly emotional farewell as Tony gives his life to use the new Infinity Gauntlet to snap Thanos and his forces out of existence. After the dust settles, the Avengers do what they promised and Cap goes back in time with the Stones to return them to the same times and places they were taken. He decides to not return though, and instead meets up again with the love of his life, Peggy Carter, in the 1940s to live out his life until 2023 when he shows up as an old man to hand over his Captain America shield and title to Falcon. It’s all poignant and fitting and makes no damn sense at all.

If the Thanos from 2014 dies in 2023, skipping over the intervening years, how could he have been around to gain the Stones and do the Snap in 2018? We also see the modern Nebula kill her 2014 self, but then shouldn’t that mean that she won’t exist anymore? Also, the Gamora from 2014 is now running around somewhere out there, even though her death in 2018 at Thanos’ hand to acquire the Soul Stone is a critical and immutable event on the timeline.

It may do your brain in trying to noodle out these out, and this is especially frustrating because a simple answer to this problem is right there in front of us. If Tony had used the Gauntlet to not snap Thanos and co out of existence but rather sent them back to their original time with no memory of future events (which he easily had the power to do) there would be no paradoxes. There would be no Gamora lost in the present either (which I’m guessing will factor into Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.3) but there are other ways around that. Tony didn’t send them back though and instead wiped them from the timeline before they were supposed to perform the actions that created this future in the first place.

And then we have the problem of Captain America who returned to the 1940s after dropping off the Stones and returning Thor’s hammer to Asgard (plugging one plot hole) and then spent his life with Peggy Carter. Him being around back then changes the timeline, but we can wave it off by guessing that he never interacted with anybody else for the rest of his life. It’s implausible, but not impossible. This would also mean though that Cap basically just stayed quiet and in hiding through all the horrific events he knew was going to happen before anybody else. That just doesn’t sound like him.

We could subscribe to the alternate timeline theory, that there are now at least two totally new timelines – one sans a Thanos, and other in which Steve Rogers grew old with his love – but the ending ruins that as Captain America is still around in the original timeline to pass on his legacy.

Granted this type of muddling confusion is often the case in time travel movies. It’s why ones that get the logical and scientific details 100% correct (see: Timecrimes, Primer, Predestination) are so highly regarded. And normally I overlook these things. Hell, Infinity War had its own fair share of logical plot holes as well (exactly how did Corvus Glaive get into Shuri’s lab to attack Vision, when Thanos’ entire army was still struggling to get through the Wakandan force fields?) but I chose to not focus on them for the sake of the overall narrative. The problem here though is that Endgame actually goes out of its way to establish its rather coherent rules about how time travel works in the MCU, even making fun of other famous time travel movies that get it wrong, and then promptly does the exact thing on a much bigger scale.

Of course, you may not even notice these paradoxes though, as I’ve seen and heard of plenty of folks who were so caught up in the thrilling action and touching character moments that the holes just didn’t register. And that’s perfectly okay too. Those action beats and character moments are some of the best in superhero movie history, and it makes sense to get swept up in them. For sticklers like me, I just wish the same level of meticulous care was given to the plot.

Last Updated: April 26, 2019

67 Comments

  1. How do the kids say these days… Oof?

    Reply

  2. Nick de Bruyne

    April 26, 2019 at 17:07

    Yeah, the movie is awesome but some of this stuff just doesn’t sit quite right. If they do have a solid explanation, it wasn’t communicated well enough.

    Reply

  3. BradeLunner

    April 26, 2019 at 17:08

    Ok these are fair points, but I’m still just dealing with the end of phase three, can’t stop thinking about it! Watching with a dedicated hardcore audience was so amazing, it was like being at a champions league final or something

    Reply

  4. Gareth Lagesse (eXCheez)

    April 26, 2019 at 14:31

    Despite all the raving reviews, this really makes the movie sound like a mess. Time travel has to be considered and established early on, and executed whole-heartedly and this sounds tacked-on.

    Reply

    • Kervyn Cloete

      April 27, 2019 at 23:16

      It’s actually a testament to how good everything else is that even with these flaws, it still warrants its high scores.

      Reply

  5. Caveshen Rajman

    April 26, 2019 at 20:46

    Glad to have a place to actually discuss this lol.

    I was absolutely onboard at the beginning when they established those rules, as you say, where time is immutable and whatever happened has already happened and happened exactly in that way.

    I was also mostly onboard when things started to get messy, and they talked about reverting the timelines afterwards, like, okay maybe this can work let’s just roll with it, comic books etc.

    Then when Nebula kills her past self, and Thanos just fades out of existence (granted that can at least be argued as a soft death, where Tony might have – arguably – sent them back to their timeline) that’s when things started to get… turbulent, let’s say.

    After that, I really had to fight myself to stop thinking about it and just enjoy the fan service.

    I imagine once the honeymoon phase ends, people will start thinking about this shit and calling it out a bit more.

    Also: What the fuck was the point of Captain Marvel in this movie? Like what did she actually do besides two cameos? Did they even need her at all? But I digress.

    Reply

    • Guz

      April 27, 2019 at 08:48

      100% the captain Marvel thing, like sure she’s busy with the rest of the galaxy but Thanos was busy with his plan the wipe out half of it, surely there isn’t anything more pressing than that but I think it was more an introduction for her to the avengers and a send off for the original avengers

      Reply

    • Caveshen Rajman

      April 28, 2019 at 16:53

      On second thought, I think everything about the time travel stuff is actually perfectly sound except for Steve existing in the current timeline (Earth-616, let’s say) – I think that’s the one rule-breaking part, but the rest entirely makes sense in the context of “They went back and put everything back in place, and the anonalies are new timelines” a la comics. I’m fine with that, but then Steve shouldn’t be old in 616?

      ???

      Reply

    • Frans J Smit

      April 29, 2019 at 08:41

      We were having the same discussion last night. Sure she came and wrecked the ship, but her small role was not worth the hype they created around her. She was “supposed to end your war” but oh well… Isaiah Bradley is meant to be the African American captain America so I guess they have 1 part of that right at least.

      Reply

    • For the Emperor!

      April 29, 2019 at 09:21

      I think Marvel was more a plug to get her into the future of the MCU, so they have her established for the next phase?

      Reply

      • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

        April 29, 2019 at 09:21

        They were plugging that haircut

        Reply

    • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

      April 29, 2019 at 09:21

      Her point was to show off the silly haircut

      Reply

  6. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 09:17

    1.Is Thor going to be in GOTG3????, please please please!!!
    2.Who will lead the Avengers now?
    3.Time travel is stupid
    4. Cap and Mjolnir!!!!!
    5 Dr Hulk isn’t just the strongest avenger, he is the funniest xD!

    These are just the first few, I’m still processing this but for now bravo marvel, it was everything I could have wanted, sure we can nit pick here and there but overall I found it a fitting end to the saga

    Reply

    • Kervyn Cloete

      April 27, 2019 at 22:19

      Asgardians of the Galaxy is actually a comic title running at the moment, to yes, Thor will probably be in GOTG3

      Reply

      • For the Emperor!

        April 29, 2019 at 09:28

        That is good news. Comedic Thor is GOLDEN! Just hope we get more of Valkyrie/Thor. The chemistry between them in Ragnarok was awesome.

        Reply

        • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

          April 29, 2019 at 09:42

          Didn’t you hear? They want to SJWify Valkyrie

          Reply

          • For the Emperor!

            April 29, 2019 at 09:50

            That one scene where they go “she has backup” and ALL the women do a power pose, did feel a bit like SJW pandering.

          • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

            April 29, 2019 at 09:50

            Indeed, that was really, really, REALLY lame.

            Like they were making fois gras out of us with it

          • Guz

            April 29, 2019 at 09:58

            It felt a bit forced, but at least it was brief, there was so much more going on anyway

          • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

            April 29, 2019 at 09:58

            Yeah, but WHY put it in though?

            Rather get ALL characters in saying the same thing, since unity and equality sends a better message than “hurr durr gurl powa”

          • Kervyn Cloete

            April 29, 2019 at 13:48

            It’s a rather cheap attempt to pander to fans who have have been calling for an A-Force movie for years. That’s the all-female Avengers team that Captain Marvel co-led. Instead of making that movie though, they did this.

          • For the Emperor!

            April 29, 2019 at 10:05

            I just figured it out! They are preparing us for Femvengers! 😛

          • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

            April 29, 2019 at 10:12

            Mein flammenwerfer ist ready

    • Original Heretic

      April 28, 2019 at 19:58

      In response to 1.
      Of course he will be! Of course. Of course. *Whisper* of course

      Reply

    • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

      April 29, 2019 at 09:21

      FatThor is the funniest, Prof Hulk close second

      Reply

    • For the Emperor!

      April 29, 2019 at 09:28

      1: Oh hell yes!
      2: Of those left…I don’t see any of them as the “leader” just yet. All the leaders (Cap, Tony, Widow) are gone. I guess one of them will have to earn it in the next phase.
      3: If it made sense, we would be able to do it already 😛
      4: YES!! The cinema popped at that 🙂
      5: That fake rage scene hahaha

      Reply

  7. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    show up

    Reply

  8. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    in the

    Reply

  9. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:59

    latest comments section and I could spoil it, so sorry for spam posting to push my earlier comments down the list

    Reply

    • Kervyn Cloete

      April 28, 2019 at 22:06

      We’ve turned them off.

      Reply

      • Guz

        April 29, 2019 at 08:41

        I commented and then saw it in the latest comments, was like oh shit I done f’ed up now xD

        Reply

  10. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    Realized

    Reply

  11. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    these

    Reply

  12. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    Just

    Reply

  13. Guz

    April 27, 2019 at 13:52

    that

    Reply

  14. Original Heretic

    April 28, 2019 at 19:48

    The time plot was extremely messy.
    But bloody hell what a ride!

    I have so much more to say, but I don’t want to spoil anything for anyone under latest comments.

    Reply

    • Kervyn Cloete

      April 28, 2019 at 22:06

      Don’t worry. We’ve turned them off.

      Reply

      • Original Heretic

        April 29, 2019 at 10:05

        Okay, cool!

        Right, how the hell did Stark manage to use the stones?! On mere contact with one, a human should be disintegrated. He had all six. Shouldn’t have been time for him to get a snap off.

        Also, when returning the stones to their original time lines… Hooooow? They were all in different forms (tesseract, staff, etc.) Did cap reforge all those items when he returned them?

        Reply

        • For the Emperor!

          April 29, 2019 at 10:05

          Yeah, the “normies” being able to handle the stones felt a bit out of place…unless they wore special gloves? And left the “parts” of the stones somewhere safe to return them? I don’t know.

          Reply

          • Original Heretic

            April 29, 2019 at 12:54

            What about poor Jane? Did she have to get injected with a solid stone?!

          • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

            April 29, 2019 at 10:12

            Indeed, ProfHulk just taking time stone in his hand, soul stone being able to be ‘handled’ SO MANY INCONSISTENCIES

          • Kervyn Cloete

            April 29, 2019 at 13:48

            So Hulk actually doesn’t touch the time stone when the Ancient One gives it to him, it sort of floats in mid air between his fingers. Same for her. Strange handled it the same way in Infinity War

            I’ll have to check later scenes in Endgame to see if Hulk handles it differently though.

          • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

            April 29, 2019 at 14:24

            Yeah, I’m quite keen to re-watch it

  15. AfroStalin

    April 28, 2019 at 19:48

    Time travel sucks.

    Reply

  16. Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

    April 29, 2019 at 08:34

    I didn’t LOVE it, but I definitely didn’t HATE it.

    I guess I’m still kinda angry because it concluded (no more movies of this arc), and some of Endgame’s end-game was a bit sloppy. But yeah, it was one hell of a ride

    Reply

  17. Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

    April 29, 2019 at 08:34

    DadBodThor was kak funny

    Reply

  18. Llama In The Rift

    April 29, 2019 at 09:13

    How was Stark’s tech able to harness the power of the Stones where Thanos had to search for this special place capable of harnessing the Stones without being blown up? So Nidavellir is pointless if you have an intelligent enough human to make a glove? By that logic should Thanos have people smart enough as he supposed to be way more advanced technologically?

    Reply

    • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

      April 29, 2019 at 09:21

      Well, he had the original busted glove, so could reverse engineer it

      Reply

      • Llama In The Rift

        April 29, 2019 at 09:21

        Well yeah…but you need the power of a heart of a dying star…hence why Thanos had to find and travel to Nidavellir

        Reply

        • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

          April 29, 2019 at 09:28

          Perhaps Tony used his heart to power it (GEDDIT?)

          Reply

      • For the Emperor!

        April 29, 2019 at 11:32

        That is my assumption as well. With his tech (and nano-tech), and the original gauntlet, plus they had access to space travel to get better materials if needed.

        Reply

        • Admiral Chief Flammenwerfer

          April 29, 2019 at 14:39

          Wasn’t the forge re-ignited and space-dwarf could advise on the tech?

          Reply

          • For the Emperor!

            April 29, 2019 at 14:48

            That is true, forge is going again, and we never saw Tyrion being snapped out of existence.

    • Nick de Bruyne

      April 29, 2019 at 13:55

      I had a personal theory that its because he didn’t have the proper one that it did so much damage to him and Hulk. Had they had the proper artefact, the person wielding may have been more protected?

      Reply

      • Llama In The Rift

        April 29, 2019 at 14:03

        I thought the same but remember, Tony pulled the stones of the glove they made and used it on his own armor right before he snapped….according to what we saw in all past MCU movies, like the first Guardians movie and the power stone and the Collector scene Tony supposed to explode into a fiery RGB explosion with all that power.

        Reply

        • Nick de Bruyne

          April 29, 2019 at 15:34

          If the sort of tech he has and the way the stones snap into place on Thanos’ gauntlet are shown stay to that rule, I do believe that the glove he engineered could have sort of been made to just vacuum them into place as they are knocked loose or something to that effect.

          The truth with these movies is that while they are super awesome, they do ask that you just sort of sit back and accept a lot of stuff. I mean, look how much we have just accepted that Tony’s recent nano-tech just makes full suits appear and disappear out of nowhere, where like 10 years go his suit needed an entire machine just for him to put it on.

          Reply

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