Home Gaming Poll: PS4 to outsell Xbox One in holiday season

Poll: PS4 to outsell Xbox One in holiday season

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PS4 for Christmas
Ah, Xmas. A holiday where people celebrate how lucky they are and enjoy quality time with friends and family. No wait, who are we kidding, Xmas is about celebrating consumerism! What better way to celebrate than by buying a next generation console? Apparently, PS4 will outsell the Xbox One during the annual celebration of spending.

In a survey from Reuters/Ipsos, the PS4 is seriously outpacing the Xbox One:

Asked about their interest in dedicated game devices, 26 percent of 1,297 people surveyed online last week say they are likely to purchase the new PlayStation 4 when available, versus 15 percent opting for the Xbox One.

The rift widens among those below the age of 40. Of that group of 408 people, 41 percent picked Sony’s PS4 versus 27 percent for Microsoft’s Xbox One

I wish we had more information on this poll. It appears it was a small sample with respondents completing the survey online. It may be valid, but it’s hard to tell at this point.

That said, the holiday season is not the entire battle, especially considering the number of countries that will be getting the consoles at launch. Sure, some of the biggest markets in the world are launch countries, but not all. The PS4 will definitely win the holiday battle in South Africa, but that’s a victory by default. We just need to see how South Africans respond when Xbox launches locally next year.

So, is it over for Xbox? Has PlayStation won this round of the console war? Or has the battle only just begun?

Last Updated: September 30, 2013

48 Comments

  1. Lardus-Resident Perve

    September 30, 2013 at 13:41

    Round one of the next generation goes to PS4, but this is a marathon, not a sprint. There will be more rounds and Xbox has a chance to come back swinging. The amount of launch countries will definitely have an impact on release sales, so it is not something concrete to go on.

    Reply

    • ToshZA

      September 30, 2013 at 14:25

      Case in point: PS3 started off horribly (that price, wow!), but now that the gen is done, I’d say it’s the clear winner.

      Although, Sony will be laughing all the way to the bank this year.

      Reply

      • Drewidian

        September 30, 2013 at 14:58

        You have to consider that Microsoft was a distant third in the previous generation and that Sony was the clear gaming leader. When Sony started this current generation they were coming off of selling over 150M PS2s. Microsoft sold a little more than 24M Original XBoxes. Any sales person would look at going from 150M to roughly 80 as a loss and going from 24 to roughly 80m as a win. Sony definitely tied the Generation 7 console war and that can’t be denied.

        Reply

        • ToshZA

          September 30, 2013 at 15:08

          Sure, if you take the shareholder’s perspective, your point is 100% valid, and I can’t argue that.

          However, as a gamer, I don’t care how much money the companies made. I care about the games the consoles gave me. And PS3 was the clear winner at the end. Any PS3 owner had lots of win to boast toward Xbox owners. Last of Us, Journey, Ni No Kuni are just 3 of the most recent exclusives that I’ll never get to play, and am really sad about. I honestly cannot name a game on Xbox that would make me choose it over the PS3 (at this point). I bought an Xbox based on price alone, and I am sad about that. The only redeeming factor is the amazing controller.

          So, PS4 has a great gaming heritage AND price on its side this time around. Honestly, I think they’re going in ahead. Again, I don’t much care for how much money the fat cats make – it’s my money they’re buying their new cars with.

          Reply

  2. Pieter Kruger

    September 30, 2013 at 13:42

    Zzzzzzzzzzzz……

    Reply

  3. Admiral Chief of Rivia

    September 30, 2013 at 13:42

    I’m hoping to hit beta candidate for Steambox by then ๐Ÿ™‚

    Reply

    • Lara's John

      September 30, 2013 at 13:53

      You win

      Reply

    • Her Highness the Hipster

      September 30, 2013 at 14:02

      then i’m crossing the boerewors curtain to come visit! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Reply

      • Admiral Chief of Rivia

        September 30, 2013 at 14:04

        No beer + no biltong = no entry

        Reply

        • Lara's John

          September 30, 2013 at 14:04

          Those are fair terms.

          Reply

          • Admiral Chief of Rivia

            September 30, 2013 at 14:08

            Kudu biltong and beer of my choice

          • Her Highness the Hipster

            September 30, 2013 at 14:15

            which is your preferred beer?

          • Jonah Cash

            September 30, 2013 at 14:36

            This………………….. (Admirals don’t need alcohol!!!

          • Admiral Chief of Rivia

            September 30, 2013 at 14:38

            Useless Admirals maybe, but not this one

          • Jonah Cash

            September 30, 2013 at 15:09

            Hahahahaha!! 0.0% Ad’s that is the way forward… Just turn the cap 0.0% and you will be fine!!

          • Admiral Chief of Rivia

            September 30, 2013 at 14:37

            COLD!!!

            hehehe

        • Sageville

          September 30, 2013 at 15:41

          I bet you say that to all the boys….

          Reply

  4. JHN

    September 30, 2013 at 13:56

    Im still undecided on which one to get.

    Reply

    • e1ace

      September 30, 2013 at 14:03

      For South African’s it’s a little easier. If you want next gen in the next 6 months PS4 is the only option.

      I’ll be very surprised if Sony manage to ‘win’ the US this year. The feature set of the Xbox in the US is very appealing. Their console is catered to the American services.

      Reply

    • Lara's John

      September 30, 2013 at 14:04

      I think for a lot of people who aren’t fans of either it’s going to come down to what exclusives you prefer.

      Reply

      • ToshZA

        September 30, 2013 at 14:24

        I fall under this category.

        Reply

        • Brady miaau

          September 30, 2013 at 15:17

          I fail under this category

          Reply

      • ToshZA

        September 30, 2013 at 14:24

        I fall under this category.

        Reply

  5. Rincethis

    September 30, 2013 at 14:04

    Zoe, you and Bieber are the biggest SONY fanboys eva!

    Reply

  6. PS4H1P5T4

    September 30, 2013 at 14:14

    PS4 numero uno! You tell them Zoe!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply

  7. saneman

    September 30, 2013 at 14:53

    PS4 is the only console being launch in south africa in dec.

    Or you could wait till next year dec and pay another R1000 more for less hardware and crap spyware u dont need.

    Reply

  8. Brady miaau

    September 30, 2013 at 14:58

    What console wars?

    There is the pre-order wars.

    Will the PS4 outsell the Xbox One over Christmas. Yes, probably,judging by media comments. Will it outsell the Xbox over whole year? Who knws?

    Reply

  9. Brian Murphy

    September 30, 2013 at 15:34

    I would argue that what the PS3 did was pretty tremendous. In the face of unprecedented media backlash at launch, with the highest price point of any console ever, and a difficulty to program for that developers weren’t prepared for, they still ended up in the lead at the end of it all (between Microsoft and Sony, of course).

    I would argue that it came down to content. And that won’t change this gen, so I think Microsoft has put themselves at a pretty severe disadvantage. Not only do they not have the easier hardware to design for, they also don’t have the price point, nor does their PR department appear to be anywhere near it’s 360 levels.

    The results of the survey are hardly unexpected, and I don’t honestly see it changing very much over next-gen. Though, it could force Microsoft into some humility, and to really compete with gamer’s, and not just for shareholders. We’ll see!

    Reply

    • Drewidian

      September 30, 2013 at 15:56

      You could easily say that MS is in the position with the Xbox One that Sony was for the PS3 regarding message, price, and capabilities. I’ll be the first to say that they’ve messed up as much if not more than Sony did and that they will have to do a lot of work to redeem themselves, but anything is possible. It all depends on what they choose to do with the potential of the console. I own both, but I use the 360 the most with my kids since it has more apps for them.

      Reply

      • Brian Murphy

        September 30, 2013 at 16:06

        Not really, the PS4 has the power, once again this gen. Their message really isn’t that overwhelming or unrivaled given Sony’s cloud system has already been in place before Sony bought it, it’s also a very high-end system since Gaikai went full bore in the tech department to reduce latency.

        I mean, there are some similarities, but definitely not all. Kinect 2.0 has intrigue, but it’s still missing that must-have app. The voice recognition isn’t exclusive to the One either. So essentially, the PS4 will have longer legs, Sony’s proven their dev teams will provide countless variety in the IP dept, at a lower price point, and as they did with the PS3, they’ll have dedicated servers for their more hardcore games.

        As far as the 360 comments are concerned, that may be where Microsoft is more interested, this gen. In which case, they wouldn’t actually be competition for the PS4. They’d largely be targeting a different demo. Right? So, the numbers between the two would be relatively meaningless in the long run.

        Reply

        • Drewidian

          September 30, 2013 at 16:29

          It has the raw GPU Power, but in terms of capabilities you could argue the Xbox One has more and depending on how MS and third parties plan to support them it could reach a broader audience the way the Wii did with casual gamers. You are right that they need a “Must Have” app, That’s what will spark interest in the Kinect. We have yet to see one for either the Xbox 360 or the Xbox One yet. I don’t ever expect to see it for the PS Eye.

          The voice recognition is a gimmick on the PS4, Its basically a tick box to say they have it, but its unlikely that anyone will really use it or program for it whereas we did see some use on the 360 in some limited capacity for games like Skyrim, and it should be more prevalent in the Xbox One since every console will have it so there’s more of an incentive to implement it IF(and I do mean if) it makes a difference in the game or app.

          As far as server infrastructure, MS clearly is better at it than Sony. There’s just no debate over that. They have more, its more stable, and while Sony has Gaikai, MS will have their service that will stream games to the PCs, Phones, and we presume the Xbox One. There’s still no real details or availability of solid information for either console or demos yet, so we’ll have to wait and see how this turns out.

          I think MS is targeting a broader demographic that includes hardcore gamers, casual gamers, TV enthusiasts, and the general public, whereas Sony clearly is going for just the gamer market. Since the Gamer market represents maybe 250M users in total that’s who Sony is going after, which may be split 60/40 or even 70/30 in favor of Sony, but MS is going for a much broader base which includes gamers, cable/satellite TV, Fitness, and others which may be a market of over a billion subscribers. We just don’t know yet, but the number is huge. If MS does get into these markets, and sells well, it could outnumber the entire sales of the PS4 just by reaching a broader market. We just don’t know right now. Time will tell.

          Good points though, Thanks for having a conversation without resorting to name calling. Rare on the net.

          Reply

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 16:50

            “The voice recognition is a gimmick on the PS4, Its basically a tick box to say they have it, but its unlikely that anyone will really use it or program for it whereas we did see some use on the 360 in some limited capacity for games like Skyrim, and it should be more prevalent in the Xbox One since every console will have it so there’s more of an incentive to implement it IF(and I do mean if) it makes a difference in the game or app.”

            See, I disagree with this, just because Sony hasn’t made it a cornerstone of their platform, doesn’t mean it’s just a gimmick. It simply means Sony is more focused elsewhere. Which I think they learned from the PS3. They had such a wide array of messages regarding the PS3, that people really weren’t certain what they were buying. Now, it’s been all games, all the time, with relatively little time spent on the obvious multimedia features it WILL have.

            At it’s core, it’s a games device, and much like both consoles they’re fast becoming multi-purpose tools (ala PC). However, it’s primary concern is games, so spending overwhelming amounts of their keynote speeches/reveals etc… on everything it does that isn’t games, doesn’t seem logical for who they’re targetting.

            Sony also isn’t jumping the gun here. As with Microsoft, some of these multimedia functionality isn’t ready, so they’re not clamoring about it, which is what I think is a mistake for MS. They’re counting their eggs before they hatch.

            As far as server infrastructure, no, MS clearly is not better. They’ve been charging for XBL for what, 7 years now? And there’s been no noticeable improvement in the XBL experience in that timeframe? And yet, they’ve added ads and other such invasive shit? And they HAVEN’T been providing dedicated servers for their high-end IP? What the fuck are people paying for (sorry, not yelling at you, just kind of exasperated with that fact)? The privilege to access Activisions servers for CoD? What sense does that make?

            In the beginning, clearly XBL was ahead of PSN. That has changed. PSN offers just as good of an experience as XBL, and PS+ actually gives you something other than the ability to access other peoples dedicated servers. Free games, and soon, dedicated servers for all their major IP. The money Sony is making from PS+ is going towards improving PSN, the money Microsoft has made from XBL, is going to their shareholders and CEO’s. Big problem there.

            I think both companies are targetting as large of a demographic as possible (Sony’s got plenty of kid friendly IP), however, I think Microsoft is depending on your Halo’s, Gears, and Forza’s to coddle their core gamer’s, and hoping that 3rd parties will help make up the difference. However, since the PS4 versions are already looking to be the definitive versions, that may be an issue for MS, and they may need to rethink it. Because, let’s face it, the people who spend the lions share of money on games are the core gamer’s. The casual market is great and all, but they don’t buy games at the same pace as your core gamer does.

            Can’t argue with the appeal to a broader audience though. There’s certainly opportunity there, for both companies. I really like Sony working with Viacom to deliver content w/o needing a Cable Box though, I think that’s a brilliant strategy, and if they can sign more deals with more content providers, that could be a whole new realm because no one really offers that in a set top box.

            Thanks to you as well for the discussion, clearly we have different views, but it doesn’t mean we have to be assholes about it ๐Ÿ™‚

            Have a great day!

          • Drewidian

            September 30, 2013 at 17:16

            You have some valid points and I’ll be the first to say MS’s TV stuff is all potential right now, but at the beginning of the cycle its all potential. Read some of my other posts about the TV stuff on this page. Either way its going to be an exciting 2014 year as I intend to get both consoles, but I think the Xbox One has the the best “legs” if you will pardon the expression since I see it reaching a much broader audience.

            Have a great day as well and thanks again for the interesting convo.

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 17:30

            See, right now, without knowing more about Sony’s future plans, I’d say you’re correct. But, as Sony learned with the PS3, the early stages of a consoles life is largely about core gamer’s adoption of it. Casual gamer’s, fitness buffs, an TV enthusiasts aren’t traditionally going to be picking up consoles 1st day. You follow? Sony made a similar mistake in the PS3’s early life, by going all out about all the functionality, and the core gamer really wasn’t sure what was going to be possible.

            Whereas, this current strategy, allows them to target the folks who’ll pick this stuff up on day 1, and then start hallmarking the extra bells and whistles once they’ve established a user base to start tapping into the other demo groups.

            The one thing Sony has over MS, if nothing else, is that they had to struggle mightily with the PS3 before they got to where they are now. They know the mistakes they’ve made in the past, and they’ve done virtually everything right this time around. Microsoft is having to learn the same thing, except they’re basically 7 years behind in learning that lesson.

            I don’t foresee Sony stumbling anytime soon, so…if they can keep applying those lessons they learned from the PS3, Microsoft may not have a chance to catch up. Of course, understand, the One is still going to sell, that’s not in question here. I just don’t see them overtaking Sony this time around, provided Sony continues on their current trend.

          • Drewidian

            September 30, 2013 at 18:03

            I hear you Brian, but its about pool size. Sony may be the big fish in the Gamer Pool, but MS will jump into the pool of Cable TV which is the size of an Ocean. Its all about scale. If MS has just 15% of the cable market, that will be about 120Million consoles (800M cable subscribers world wide), which I think will dwarf the sales of the PS4 even if they get 60% of the hard core gaming market. That market will be irresistible to developers and could be a much bigger sales target than what Sony could offer. That’s why TV is so important to MS. I mean just to put it into perspective, several analysts predict that Netflix the king of streaming TV will hit 40 Million subscribers by the end of 2015. That’s 2 years from now, while there are almost 800 Million world wide subscribers of cable. Hmmm… Do you really think Sony’s NEW streaming service will hit even Netflix levels? I don’t. They will be lucky to get 2-4 million in its first 5 years.

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 20:08

            Again, you’re going by what Microsoft and Sony have said, as the end of everything they will be offering. And I see it differently. Sony, for one, has content in reams. They own numerous TV IP, including Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune, The Boondocks, Breaking Bad, Unforgettable, Hannibal, all of Columbia Tristar pictures library, etc… they have more than a foot in the door in that regard…and they own a major movie studio. So to say there won’t be more coming from them in the multimedia department is a bit premature.

            I think they’ve simply learned to alter their tone (remember the hammering they got for focusing on everything that wasn’t games in the early days of the PS3, and how companies used that confusion to make PR jabs at them, constantly), the announcements for this stuff will happen after the intitial rush for Gamers. At which point, word of mouth will spread the information just as fast as their advertising.

            Sony could very well rival netflix, insofar that Sony could yank Netflix licensing of Sony Pictures movies. Then again, Sony may not need to, since Netflix isn’t behind a paywall on the PS3, or PS4. Whereas, you have to have an Xbox live Gold account…so you can have the privilege of paying a monthly fee for Netflix also (makes about as much sense as paying for the privilege of accessing a 3rd parties dedicated servers).

            There are allot of issues with how Microsoft does things, and it’s done…not for a better infrastructure, but so they can maximize how much money they can make off of you. Charging people to be able to access a 3rd party app that they already pay a monthly fee for? Really? C’mon…that’s horrible.

            And by the way, Sony has also said Gaikai could stream to Tablets, PC’s, and phones as well (shouldn’t be a surprise, since that’s what Gaikai was originally intended for before Sony bought it). So, again, there’s plenty in the pipeline that Sony hasn’t announced, and they’re playing this game pretty masterfully at the moment.

  10. Sageville

    September 30, 2013 at 15:35

    Unbeknowenst to most, all respondents were Microsoft Employees.

    Reply

  11. Drewidian

    September 30, 2013 at 15:43

    Sony definitely won the PR battle and the first round of initial sales to the gamer community over Microsoft. No one can deny that, but the war isn’t over. MS did some key things that might push it over the top with the broader gamer/general user market that Sony just can’t compete with. The HDMI in and Kinect inclusions for the Xbox One and exclusions of the equivalent tech for the PS4 may be the long term deciding factor.

    MS has a long history of working with cable and satellite companies and could work out deals for those companies to sell Xbox Ones to their subscribers for anywhere from $99 – $199 down for a two year subscription. This alone could tip the sales battle in Microsoft. Since it leverages current cable/satellite infrastructure, it doesn’t need high bandwidth network connectivity for access so it should be able to reach more markets than the Xbox 360. The cable companies in those countries that want to sell the Xbox One will do some of the work/lobbying since it is in their interests to do so which makes it not look like an outsider coming in.

    Skype will be huge on the Xbox One since it could be used in conjunction with fitness apps, remote classes, Doctor’s advice and check ins for in home patients who can’t get out every day. There’s a lot of applications for this since I’ve talked to two doctors who are planning on piloting this with a few patients and writing off the cost of the Xbox One as a medical devices. I laughed at that last one, but they said they could do it. Who knows. Either way it shows what potential there is for doing this with the Xbox One that the PS4 can’t do out of the box easily. It will be interesting to see where this goes over the lifespan of the console.

    Reply

    • Brian Murphy

      September 30, 2013 at 16:22

      “MS has a long history of working with cable and satellite companies and could work out deals for those companies to sell Xbox Ones to their subscribers for anywhere from $99 – $199 down for a two year subscription.”

      Definitely a good move by Microsoft, however, I think the even more compelling move is Sony’s deal with Viacom to stream live content to the PS4 WITHOUT needing a Cable TV subscription. A major coup in the cable TV dept.

      Reply

      • Drewidian

        September 30, 2013 at 16:43

        MS has more streaming partnerships than Sony. The Viacom deal is small in comparison. It still means a limited market since you have to have a decent amount of network bandwidth to stream, whereas the Xbox One doesn’t. See the list below for comparison. Don’t get mew wrong, I’m glad they are getting some more services but its 17 for PSN to 48 for Xbox Live, and most of the PSN ones are on Live.

        PSN
        http://us.playstation.com/psn/psn-services/

        XBox Live
        http://support.xbox.com/en-US/browse/apps/tv-and-movies

        MS may even waive the cost of Live if you have a cable subscription with the Xbox One deal. My source who works at Comcast has said they have engaged in long negotiations with MS over a deal, but it will not be announced until sometime in h2 2014 after the initial run of Xbox Ones has been sold and in the market. Titan Fall might be a launch app or released at the same time for the service, but he was dancing around questions I was asking when I brought that up. we will have to wait to see. Don’t forget MS has over 100 TV projects they are investigating in and have funded at least a dozen original programs. MS already has relationships with Sky, Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner, DishNetwork, DirecTV, and AT&T’s Uverse. So while I’m glad to see Sony jumping in, they have some catching up to do.

        Reply

        • Brian Murphy

          September 30, 2013 at 16:53

          Are those live feeds? Ergo, you’ll be able to stream them at the same time new content comes out? And not just stream old content? Sony certainly doesn’t have that right now.

          Reply

          • Drewidian

            September 30, 2013 at 17:09

            Yes. The Verizon, Sky, and TWC network feeds offer Live TV. When you hooked up AT&T’s Uverse it made the Xbox 360 into an extender of the service so you could access the live and on demand streams. MS made the Uverse solution which they recently sold off to Ericson, I think because they wanted to partner with a broader base of cable/satellite companies and those companies wanted to be on an even footing with MS for the Xbox One. That meant selling the Media Room service which Uverse and about 40 other streaming networks were based on.

            The HDMI input allows for legacy networks and networks in transition from traditional digital coax/HDMI output to IPTV to be able to make that transition without needing additional hardware, expensive upgrades in HW, or disruption in service. It also means that whatever the cable network equipment is it will at least be able to be viewed through the Xbox One without any additional HW as long as that equipment has an HDMI output. Its pretty brilliant, and allows them to almost immediately partner with companies around the world. In 2014 when MS announces these partnerships it should be interesting.

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 17:25

            Yeah but the HDMI in, requires you to have another set top box. That’s not something everyone’s interested, you know? Granted, many people have Cable TV, but this gives them alternatives, especially if you only like a few things that Cable TV has to offer. That’s the point really. I think both companies are providing content that the vast majority of the masses are interested in.

          • Drewidian

            September 30, 2013 at 17:37

            I hear you Brian, but the Xbox One can do anything that the PS4 can do in this regard and then go the extra distance and work with Live TV through a cable connection if you want without using that Network bandwidth that may be capped for users who don’t have an unlimited connection. If you have an unlimited connection there are ALL of the major streaming options that are on the PS4 with the exception of the Viacomm deal. I’d expect that all if not most of the ones for the Xbox 360 will come over to the Xbox One. 48 vs 17 on the PS4 means that even with the Viacomm deal the Xbox One will have more. PS4 may finally get MTV, Paramount, and the others that are already on the Xbox One, but there are still many more that are on Xbox Live.

            If you are going to go after the cable subscriber this is just a bonus, because most cable subscribers are interested in Live TV for the News or their specialized programs like Reality TV Shows… I’m just saying that this market isn’t planning on giving up that live tv which I doubt the Viacomm deal will provide. It will most likely be on demand only.

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 20:10

            Sony can do the same thing Microsoft can as well, and they have the added bonus of owning one of the major movie studios, and wide catalog of TV content, Microsoft has none of this. Which means, all they have is contracts that can run out, or they can be forced to renegotiate.

            And no, the Viacom deal will be Live. Sony and Viacom have already confirmed this.

          • Drewidian

            September 30, 2013 at 20:57

            Thanks for the update, and I was able to verify that it will be live content. To be honest, I hope they are successful in getting it to work. We’ll just have to wait and see how successful they will be. Like all things the price has to be right and they have to offer something that is unique. There’s already MTV, Nickelodeon, and other Viacom apps on the Xbox and it would be an easy thing to issue an update that would tie the streaming of live content to them. We’ll have to see what the exclusive content and see what they are offering before judging.

            BTW, MS is making their own exclusive shows and have over 100 projects on the board. We know of a Halo TV show and about a dozen more are in pilot phase, but MS is going to have its own exclusive content. Either way like I said, 2014 will be a very interesting year for TV.

          • Brian Murphy

            September 30, 2013 at 21:44

            No problem (Re update)

            I’m actually very hopeful they get it to work, and get more content lined up. The reason being? There’s far far far too much shit on TV, far too many channels you have to buy into in order to get the one or two stations you really care about. And the pricing is simply too high for a device that I watch maybe 2 hours a day, if that.

            As far as Xbox’s content is concerned, they’re following in Sony’s footsteps regarding the Tester (I believe that’s what it’s called). And it’s had some success, so kudos to them, hopefully we’ll see some great new inventive content from their court. It’ll keep both sides having to innovate and come up with more content to attract our attention.

  12. DPIv2

    October 1, 2013 at 01:36

    The article fails to mention that 64% of those who took the survey are not buying either. That is some of the missing information referred to as a ‘wish’ above. Nice Sony puff piece though. Both consoles are going to be bad a$$!! Why can’t the cats that write this crap just say that. Apparently, a systematic child like approach to the selection of certain ‘facts’ to share concerning the two systems makes you look cool in some circles. South Africa ….really???

    Reply

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